question about protein supplements

[[xeno]Julios]

I'm about to purchase a protein/carb supplement since i'm sick of drinking 2 litres of milk a day. Looking for something dense in both calories and protein.

I've noticed that whey protein is so popular, but isn't whey a fast protein, that is ideal only for pre workout and perhaps morning?

Wouldn't you want a slower protein for general use?

What advantages does whey offer?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Fast acting, although I don't drink it all day long I do drink it first thing in the morning, and pre workout.
Post WO I use, 0% fat, cottage cheese (Most cottage cheese is about 20% Whey and 80% Cassein), simply because I can't stand the taste of most cassein based protein mixes. FUNKY AFTER TASTE. I also haven't tried Metrx brand. I haven't tried Driver Plus yet, so I am not sure of it's taste. But Driver was nasty.

Quality whey has many other advantages, amino profile, higher BCAA profile. But mostly it's quickly absorbed so you can get the aminos in the blood and to the muscle.

Cassein is found in EGG, CHeese, Meats, Milk (as you know), Soy (something I have heard about soy is that is has an effect of raising estrogen levels, don't know how valid?), beans.

If you are up to blending your own there are a ton of recipes here and elsewhere.

Heres one
1 cup no fat cottage cheese
1 cup ice or ice cream
2 tbsp honey ( if not allergic )
1 cup milk
2 Tbsp no fat flavored pudding or Hersey's mix (your choice)
Add Fruit or nuts to your taste
Blend til smooth and away you go
Depending on what you add you are looking at 500 + calories
50 + grams protein, carbs 40 +, Fat 20 +.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

assuming i'm not able to make my own concoctions, would you recommend a whey based mixture if i'm looking for an general all purpose protein/carb supplement?

I'm just wondering why whey is so popular considering it has the disadvantage of being a fast protein, which means you don't get the sustained benefits of a slower protein.

Assuming i'm going to be using this for multiple meals, and also keeping in mind that a fast protein is only necessary pre-workout and perhaps in morning, wouldn't it make sense to get a slow protein?

Are there any good supplements out there that have lots of carbs and slow protein (the protein itself having a good amino and BCAA profile)?

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 06 2004,2:02)]assuming i'm not able to make my own concoctions, would you recommend a whey based mixture if i'm looking for an general all purpose protein/carb supplement?
I'm just wondering why whey is so popular considering it has the disadvantage of being a fast protein, which means you don't get the sustained benefits of a slower protein.
Assuming i'm going to be using this for multiple meals, and also keeping in mind that a fast protein is only necessary pre-workout and perhaps in morning, wouldn't it make sense to get a slow protein?
Are there any good supplements out there that have lots of carbs and slow protein (the protein itself having a good amino and BCAA profile)?

Whey is popular because it's cheap, easy and effective. If you're going to supplement with protein go for the whey as a general purpose supplement. You can get all the slow protein you want from regular foood. Cottage cheese is particularly good. There's Driver and Driver Plus, and a vast variety of casein proteins out there to choose from. Go to:

www.dpsnutrition.com

and

www.bulknutrition.com

They have good selections of both types of protein. Or, go to

http://www.proteinfactory.com/store/

There you can pretty much make a customer mixture of whatever you want.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

you're not understanding -

here is my logic:

a) whey is a fast protein

b) fast proteins are ideal primarily for pre workouts and perhaps mornings

c) slow proteins are ideal for everything else.

d) everything else is more common than preworkout and morning

e) a general purpose protein supplement should be ideal for the more common needs

Therefore

f) a general purpose protein supplement should be a slow protein.

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 06 2004,2:24)]f) a general purpose protein supplement should be a slow protein.

No, I definitely get your reasoning. The point is casein protein is basically the type you should be getting already from your diet. Or put it this way: You can drop 30 bucks for a tub of casein isolate and use it, or you can drop 4 bucks for a 3lb tub of cottage cheese at a Costco, Price Club or Sam's Club type of place, and save the 30 bucks for the purchase of a whey supplement, whey being not so easily attained through a basic diet as casein.

Optimum Nutrition 100% Whey is my favorite, you can get 5lbs for 25-30 bucks at those websites I listed. All due respect to Bryan and his much better than average products, a balanced diet and a whey shake is what people need more than two types of protein drinks.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

i've been eating solid food for the last year and half and am getting 4000 calories and more than enough protein from solid food.

I have never used protein powders before.

However, due to employment constraints, I will be needing a meal supplement that is easy to drink and is portable.

I need something that has lots of carbs and protein and can be made with water.

I will not be replacing all my diet with this.


Can you understand this?

Let me put it another way:

Some of the meals that I'm going to be using this replacement, are meals that require slow protein for optimal efficacy

 

[[xeno]Julios]

also bear in mind that cottage cheese is not very protein dense.

The 750 ml tubs i buy only contain 90 grams of protein. I get almost exactly that amount of protein from my daily milk consumption.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 06 2004,5:58)]i've been eating solid food for the last year and half and am getting 4000 calories and more than enough protein from solid food.
I have never used protein powders before.
However, due to employment constraints, I will be needing a meal supplement that is easy to drink and is portable.
I need something that has lots of carbs and protein and can be made with water.
I will not be replacing all my diet with this.
Can you understand this?
Let me put it another way:
Some of the meals that I'm going to be using this replacement, are meals that require slow protein for optimal efficacy

I got ya, you are going to need a supplement. The last thing you want is to allow your caloric level to drop. So you are probably going to have to check them out for yourself.

I would recommend Driver +, but I personally don't like the taste, even though it is an excellent product. You will need a cassein based protein, you will end up paying more since it is less in demand than whey, unless you want to use whey and drink a shake every hour and a half (an option) but since you will be going for prolonged periods of time without eating you will need a slow absorbtion protein.

There really isn't any difference except absoption, your body will utilize the protein it needs. It even can convert some aminos itself.

There are some good weight gainers on the market (Muscle Milk, CytoGain) that would be just what you are looking for, high calorie, high protein.

Look around and fine the best value, IE most protein per serving and the most servings per dollar. Believe it or not there is one that is sold at most Walmarts called Carb Solutions reasonable all the way around.

Or give Driver + a try and if you do let me know about the taste.

If you can't mix your own then buying it is your only option.

Hope I helped ya.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

tx dkm - what i will probably end up doing is buying two sets of powders - one slow and one fast.

Is there anything I should avoid - any notorious brands that are poor quality?

Another main reason i'm doing this is to get off milk (as i said i was drinking 2l of (lactose free) milk a day and it was eating a hole in my pocket as well as my digestive system. Literally. Blood in the toilet bowl ain't a pretty sight (no pain tho)

Thing is, was getting 1000 calories from the milk, and 90 grams of protein, so i'm gonna be using these powders on top of my meals in many cases - haven't sorted out the logistics yet.

Anyway, point is - need something that u can dissolve easily in water. Not concerned about taste - after eating virtually the same five meals day in day out for over a year, you learn not to worry too much about taste

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 06 2004,6:58)] Some of the meals that I'm going to be using this replacement, are meals that require slow protein for optimal efficacy

One, drop the tone. Two, by your own admission you have no experience with protein supplements. Maybe you should allow for another opinion rather than just looking to verify the course of action you've already decided upon. Three, there's still cheaper, better alternatives to toting around a casein supplement. Beef Jerky for one, other cured meats as well.

Liquid supplements will never be a replacement for a well designed diet of real food, you'd do well to see if you can get what you need from food before laying down more money for a less effective supplement. You want to drop the money needed to replace that many meals with a casein supplement, be my guest.

Interesting to note: you're going to have time to store and mix a casein supplement within the restrictions you have to work in, but can't manage food when there's food alternatives that cost less and are easier to prepare?

Have fun going broke for maximum efficacy.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

the tone is your interpretation here. I was emphasizing it becauase you were not really understanding me.

I will repeat again:

I want a carb AND protein supplement. I intend to get around 1000-1500 calories from this supplement on a daily basis. I also intend to get about 100-130 grams of protein from it too on a daily basis.

In order to achieve the protein portion of this alone this with cottage cheese, I would need to eat a litre a day. I'm not keen on doing that.

I eat plenty of solid food and i'm not here to ask for that sort of advice. I made that quite clear. I eat plenty of solid food as it is. However, 4000+ calories from solid food is becoming a major pain and i need a supplement.

A shake is MUCH easier to prepare and port around than anything else. I need something that i can drink in 3-5 minutes. I need something i can take with me and will keep without getting spoiled. Something that doesn't require a fork and knife and plate.

I intend to get a large thermos for this purpose.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Honestly it comes down to value, protein, cals, and other macros in the mix should be looked at and compared to the $$ you are spending. I am sure there are some that are marketed very well but have little biological value. So just do some homework and find a good supplier that one, will be there tomorrow, two, offers good product at good proce, three, you can trust. Internet is a great tool but also is awash with ripoffs so be prudent.

Another option is powdered milk, even if you just add a serving to your mix it is easier and keeps well. So again give it some thought, you may have to combine several ingredients to get the balance you are looking for.

Quote[/b] ]Three, there's still cheaper, better alternatives to toting around a casein supplement. Beef Jerky for one, other cured meats as well.

Liquid supplements will never be a replacement for a well designed diet of real food,

I agree to an extent, but in order to buy good quality cured meats you actually will end up spending the same if not more. For example, in Texas, Beef Jerky is a staple for many but to find good quality, nitrate/chemical free, you end up spending 3 to 5 dollars for 2.5 to 3 oz. with a protein rating of about 16 to 18 grams. This comes out to about .23 cents per gram. Where as a 3 lb tub of mix @ $17 with about 55 servings and 22 grams per serving comes out to .01 cent per gram. So value is on the mix side. When you add powered milk into the mix it becomes even more efficient and economical.

I also agree that whole food is best, but when under time constraints, such as what Xeno has noted you can't always find the time to sit down to a meal. He also points that his intention is to supplement, not replace.

Again I hope this helps.

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ June 07 2004,9:59)]I also agree that whole food is best, but when under time constraints, such as what Xeno has noted you can't always find the time to sit down to a meal. He also points that his intention is to supplement, not replace.
Again I hope this helps.

Thing is he's not looking for a protein supplement, he's looking for an MRP of some type. Getting 1000-1500 daily calories as he wants from a supplement, that's gonna cost an arm and a leg unless there's some super budget stuff out there I haven't seen. As for the jerky, buy wholesale and the price goes down significantly. Mix a decent serving of jerky with some fruit juice or something similar, you start getting some great calories, a good mix of carbs and protein and at a cheaper price compared to the MRPs I've seen, especially if he goes for one of those ready to drink versions.

The daily calories he's looking for, covering that with an MRP is going to kill his wallet. Take Optimum Nutritions 100% Whey MRP as an example. 290 calories per serving. He'd need 4-5 servings per day to cover his needs, and with 20 servings per shipment that covers 4-5 days,at around 20-25 bucks a shipment. That's 140 bucks a month to cover what he wants. And that's a whey supplement. In my experience casein is usually more expensive than whey. Even if he economizes and gets the cheapest wholesale stuff possible he's looking at a very healthy dent in his wallet.

My only point was that with what he lays out as his calorie requirements there are regular foods that exist to cover the need, ie, low prep, easy to carry with you types of food. They'll give the necessary protein/carbs, probably save his wallet a bit of a punch, satisfy hunger better and be more useful nutrient-wise. They're worth it even if he does spend the same amount of money, because he'll be getting something from the food he doesn't get from a supplement.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

I'm basically looking to replace milk (which i spend 150 bux canadian a month on) and perhaps one meal on some days.

I eat way more solid food than most people, and i'm not looking to reduce this to a lower than normal level of intake.

As for economic sense, you may be right, i will have to do the math once i start researching.

And i don't draw the distinction of MRP or supplement. All the stuff i consume is what i deem necessary for my goals.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (xahrx @ June 07 2004,2:25)]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ June 07 2004,9:59)]I also agree that whole food is best, but when under time constraints, such as what Xeno has noted you can't always find the time to sit down to a meal. He also points that his intention is to supplement, not replace.
Again I hope this helps.

Thing is he's not looking for a protein supplement, he's looking for an MRP of some type. Getting 1000-1500 daily calories as he wants from a supplement, that's gonna cost an arm and a leg unless there's some super budget stuff out there I haven't seen. As for the jerky, buy wholesale and the price goes down significantly. Mix a decent serving of jerky with some fruit juice or something similar, you start getting some great calories, a good mix of carbs and protein and at a cheaper price compared to the MRPs I've seen, especially if he goes for one of those ready to drink versions.
The daily calories he's looking for, covering that with an MRP is going to kill his wallet. Take Optimum Nutritions 100% Whey MRP as an example. 290 calories per serving. He'd need 4-5 servings per day to cover his needs, and with 20 servings per shipment that covers 4-5 days,at around 20-25 bucks a shipment. That's 140 bucks a month to cover what he wants. And that's a whey supplement. In my experience casein is usually more expensive than whey. Even if he economizes and gets the cheapest wholesale stuff possible he's looking at a very healthy dent in his wallet.
My only point was that with what he lays out as his calorie requirements there are regular foods that exist to cover the need, ie, low prep, easy to carry with you types of food. They'll give the necessary protein/carbs, probably save his wallet a bit of a punch, satisfy hunger better and be more useful nutrient-wise. They're worth it even if he does spend the same amount of money, because he'll be getting something from the food he doesn't get from a supplement.

I am not disagreeing with you. I too believe whole food is best. But Xeno has already made the distinction that he wants to replace milk, not actually live off the stuff. So I don't believe either of us are arguing your point, but it is his wallet and his mind to make not yours and not mine, so instead of trying to beat the guy's head in why not offer some help instead.

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 07 2004,4:31)]I'm basically looking to replace milk (which i spend 150 bux canadian a month on) and perhaps one meal on some days.

You could try a weight gainer like this one, then: http://www.dpsnutrition.net/product....h&dept=

You're still looking at some serious money if you use it, there's only 20 or so servings per bottle. Still, these things pack a lot of calories into a little space. Throwing that together with some powdered milk, and then just adding water when you're ready might do what you want. I don't know of any casein based weight gainers, usually they're a mix of the two types. Just adding straight water to the supplement tastes like hell too, so definitely get the powdered milk. Personally if I was dropping the money I'd find an affordable steak house and go out to eat more often. Just me though.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

thanks - 21 servings

that's a total of about 13,000 calories. Which is basically half a month's worth of what i need. So if i buy 2 of em, that's about 50 bux, which equals about 80 canadian. So it works out to about half the price of what i'm paying for milk.

I can't take in any more calories from solid food - i'm already eating 3 large bananas a day, peanut butter and banana sandwich on flax bread, 2 chicken breasts, grapes, almonds, honey, eggs, vegetables, two large bowls of rice, tuna and lots of yoghurt, and plenty of cottage cheese. Plus the 2 litres of milk. Everyday without fail.

I might just get a carb supplement that is whey based - i'll just be sure not to go too long without a drink, though it'd be nice to see a cheap casein one...

It sux being skinny with a high metabolism. Was 120 before i started, now i'm 165 - i require a lot more calories to maintain and bulk than naturally larger people.

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 08 2004,1:44)]thanks - 21 servings
that's a total of about 13,000 calories. Which is basically half a month's worth of what i need. So if i buy 2 of em, that's about 50 bux, which equals about 80 canadian.

...

It sux being skinny with a high metabolism. Was 120 before i started, now i'm 165 - i require a lot more calories to maintain and bulk than naturally larger people.

I hope you still mix with milk or powdered milk, just for the sake of your own taste buds. Regular protein supplements taste like hell with just water, the weight gainers are worse. By the way, That website, DPS Nutrition, and Bulk Nutrition (www.bulknutrition.com) I find usually have the best prices.

As for being skinny, I guess it'd be nice if we could trade places. It's hard as hell for me to lose fat, easy to lose muscle, easy as hell to bulk up and gain muscle and fat. Trade offs for both types of metabolism I guess.

 

[[xeno]Julios]

Quote[/b] ([xeno]Julios @ June 06 2004,11:15)]Anyway, point is - need something that u can dissolve easily in water. Not concerned about taste - after eating virtually the same five meals day in day out for over a year, you learn not to worry too much about taste

we'll see - maybe i won't cut out milk entirely - i'll do that to start to see if my bowel issues disappear, and then reintroduce it slowly.

So i'll be using water to start.