Questions for improved understanding

  • Thread starter Thread starter Guest
  • Start date Start date
G

Guest

Guest
Hello I´m an "senior"user of this board. But my old account was suddenly not useable. I guess I was too long inactive
sad.gif


I have some questions and I would be happy if someone is taking the time and would be so friendly to quote my questions with an question mark and write an answer to it because I think here are many people with great knowledge and ideas.
So THANKS i much appreciate it !!!
smile.gif


1) TUL AND TUT
Regarding Bryan primary stimulus for hypertrophy is:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">“Load and time under load is the primary stimulus in exercise induced muscle growth.”</div>

So it´s the weight we use that should be progressively increasing and the time under this load.

TUL=
is this the same as volume ? so it doesn`t matter how long a set is and how much reps it has. it only matters how many setsxreps=volume you are using ?

TUT=
time under tension. is this the same like TUL ? or is TUT saying how long a set is taking in seconds and for how long a muscle is under tension ? so this doesn`t matter ?

So regarding TUL:
Are 2 sets with 100kg and 10 reps as effective
as 4 sets with 50kg and 10 reps ?

2) Different types of hypertrophy
These are myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

2-types-of-muscle-growth500.jpg


Does HST use both types of hypertrophy ?
Does both types each make around 20% of the volume of a muscle ?

Myofibrillar hypertrophy:
(stronger useful muscles, muscle fibers are growing)
Have you train slow twitch and fast twitch muscle fibers differently ? I don`t think so regarding the hst principles.

Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy:
(the &quot;fluid&quot; is adding volume. glycogensupercompensation)
How do you train for this type of hypertrophy ? Should you train really in 8-15 (or more) rep range for this and look that you get a muscle burn and sour ? Does this type of hypertrophy really make the same amount like myofibrillar hypertrophy ?

so is this right:
Myofibrillar hypertrophy:80+% from 1RM
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy: 50-75% from 1RM and more volume

3)Training for pure strength:
I think its right to say that you should use 80+% from 1RM here. and 1-5 reps. ?
This gives you good &quot;muscle-nerv-mind&quot; connection and you learn to use as much motor units as possible.
 
I first read of sarcoplasmic vs myofibrillar hypertrophy in Verkoshansky's Super Training. That was many years ago. I have yet to find any scientific backing for this theory.

The cytoskeleton determines the density of contractile elements within a muscle cell. There is no evidence that this arrangement is effected by training.
 
okay so this theory of two types of hypertrophy has no scientific background.
But aren`t there people who are strong and big and other people with the same size who are wayyyy weaker. so it seems like the theory of two types of hypertrophy would be true anyway ?

But you say there is only a hypertrophy of muscle fibers. The &quot;&quot;sarcoplasmic&quot;&quot; part is only done by carb eating not with training ?
(as you can see on competing bodybuilders, carb depletion and carb loading has a huge impact on muscle size)
 
Someone posted here a statement from LyleMcDonald:
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....t=15657
he seems totally to agree with the hst principles and how muscle growth is triggered.

But his routine (and conjugated periodizations like westside does incorporate higher repp stuff) looks like this:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mon: Lower
Squat: 3-4X6-8/3&amp;#8242; (3-4 sets of 6-8 with a 3&amp;#8242; rest)
SLDL or leg curl: 3-4X6-8/3&amp;#8242;
Leg press: 2-3X10-12/2&amp;#8242;
Another leg curl: 2-3X10-12/2&amp;#8242;
Calf raise: 3-4X6-8/3&amp;#8242;
Seated calf: 2-3X10-12/2&amp;#8242;

Tue: Upper
Flat bench: 3-4X6-8/3&amp;#8242;
Row: 3-4X6-8/3&amp;#8242;
Incline bench or shoulder press: 2-3X10-12/2&amp;#8242;
Pulldown/chin: 2-3X10-12/2&amp;#8242;
Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5&amp;#8242;
Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5&amp;#8242;</div>

so there is higher rep stuff integrated. is this for another purpose as the purpose of the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy ? or does he think there is something like sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and that is why he has integrated this higher rep work ? (westside does definately believe in the two types of hypertrophy, but i don`t want to say thats right if you say there is no scientific proof)
 
That is a good question peanut..from my understanding high reps 10+ when you feel a burn in the muscle depletes glycogen more than low reps and is metabolically taxing so the muscle responds by storing more glycogen giving you a more toned look or give you a bigger appearance...

Now i would love for you to elaborate bryan concerning your view on the matter of sarcoplasmic v sarcomere growth??

i got tought on my &quot;personal training course&quot; that 6-12 rep range produced sarcoplasmic growth! however i have read on this forum somewhere that you couldnt selectively produce different growth in the muscle..if i find it i will post it..im sure it was from dan moore, one of the HST experts anyway..
 
ha ha it was actually me that started the post concerning your original question - sarcoplasmic v sarcomere growth...

Type this in the search box (sarcoplasmic growth) and read the post started by me. Dan moore gives a relevant review.
 
From way back when:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy and Rep Range
By Dan Moore

One of the issues I still see when reading training articles is how the rep range dictates whether any hypertrophic response predominantly influences changes in size of the contractile components of muscle cells or the sarcoplasmic volume. The intent of this article is not to dispute that sarcoplasmic hypertrophy exists but to clarify if the rep range used will dictate which protein fraction will increase and whether or not the rep range specifically induces different changes to the nuclear domain of muscle fibers.

There may very well be other factors such as metabolite accumulation and osmolality shifts within the cell that would give temporary changes to the muscle cell volume and size but since these are mostly temporary I did not feel they should be included in this article.

What is the Sarcoplasm?
Within the sarcoplasm there are soluble (or aqueous) components (making up 80 percent of it); composed of ions and soluble macromolecules like enzymes, carbohydrates, different salts and proteins, as well as a great proportion of RNA. This watery component can be more or less gel-like or liquid depending on the condition and the activity phases of the cell. In general, margin regions of the cell are gel-like and the cell's interior is liquid.

The insoluble constituents of the sarcoplasm are organelles (such as the mitochondria, the chloroplast, lysosomes, peroxysomes, ribosomes), several vacuoles, cytoskeletons as well as complex membrane structures (e.g. sarcoplasmic reticulum).

The muscle protein fraction that makes up the cytoplasm (sarcoplasm in a muscle cell) is made up of mostly enzymes participating in cell metabolism, such as the anaerobic energy conversion from glycogen to ATP, intracellular transport, and several other enzyme functions. This fraction adds up to about 25 or 30% of the total muscle protein versus the larger and more talked about structural protein (myofibril protein) makes up about 40%.

Skeletal muscle protein
When speaking of protein synthesis one of the things that first must be identified is which fraction of protein we are talking about.

Whole body protein synthesis is an average of the synthesis rates of various proteins in different tissues of the body, skin, muscle, organs, and plasma.

Mixed muscle protein is an average of the synthesis rates of total muscle proteins and includes mitochondrial, sarcoplasmic, structural components and connective tissue proteins.
Myofibrillar protein is comprised of individual proteins such as myosin, actin, titin, tropomyosin, troponin, protein C, and some components of mitochondrial proteins.

Sarcoplasmic proteins are mostly enzymes participating in cell metabolism. However, if the organelles within the muscle cells are broken, this protein fraction may also contain the metabolic enzymes localized inside the sarcoplasmic reticulum, mitochondria and lysosomes.

Fractional Protein Synthesis
It has now been known for some time that chronic elevation in protein synthesis above that of breakdown is of prime importance in skeletal muscle hypertrophy (1,2). It is this basis of understanding that we start this article off by looking into how feeding and exercise impacts fractional protein turnover.

Years ago David Millward and Peter Bates identified that protein synthesis had a direct relationship to both feeding and fasting (3). They also noted that during tissue growth (from feeding) the maintenance of a constant composition necessitates the same absolute increase in synthesis for all proteins, both contractile (myofibril) and soluble (sarcoplasmic). This would mean that the increase in the synthesis rate for each protein will be an increasing proportion of the overall rate for the slower-turning-over proteins or in more simpler terms, the increase of both fractions are held within a ratio.

Resistance training has shown very strong shifts in protein turnover (4,5) and most of the studies have used mixed muscle protein turnover as the gauge of effectiveness. Unfortunately this method does not show how resistance or dynamic exercise training differently affects each fraction.

In a study looking at age affects of Protein Synthesis (6) it was noted that by the end of 2 weeks of weight-lifting exercise, MHC and mixed protein synthesis rates increased in both younger and older participants. The actin protein synthesis rate was increased after exercise in only the younger group. The magnitude of the exercise-induced increase in MHC and mixed protein synthesis rates was similar in the younger and older groups. In the younger group, the MHC and Actin (contractile) protein synthesis rate increased 83% and 78% respectively while the mixed muscle protein synthesis rate increased (102%). This study points to the identification that, as with feeding, all proteins are up regulated with resistance exercise. Now the interesting point was that the exercise protocol used seven weight-lifting exercises (Nautilus equipment) that included the chest press, inclined chest press, latissimus pull-down (wide and narrow grip), leg press, knee extension, knee flexion, and two free weight-lifting exercises that included seated overhead press and overhead triceps extension. Each participant completed ten weight-lifting exercise sessions: 2–3 sets/day of the nine exercises listed above, 8–12 repetitions/set, 60–90% of maximum voluntary muscle strength. This was a pretty broad range of intensity and easily points out that the rep range itself isn’t the determining factor.

To further illustrate that the intensity or rep range utilized does not change this ratio all too dramatically we can look at more recent work looking into the synthetic rates of fractional proteins with dynamic or resistance type exercise.

Atherton et al. (7) used electrical stimulation with high frequency (HFS; 6x10 repetitions of 3 s-bursts at 100 Hz to mimic resistance training) to identify signalling present during increased protein synthesis. What he noted, significant to this article and discussion, was that HFS significantly increased myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis 3 h after stimulation 5.3 and 2.7 fold, respectively.

Interestingly, Bowtell (8) found that when the same total amount of ATP is turned over, exercise at 60, 75 and 90% of the one-repetition-maximum force results in exactly the same stimulation of muscle protein synthesis, suggesting that once all muscle fibers are recruited increases in tension above 65% cause no further stimulation in muscle protein synthesis. Even though I am not aware if the specific fractions were measured in the Bowtell study it would stand to reason that in light of the previous both fractions would be up-regulated.

In another study, Louis (9) subjects carried out 20 series of 10 repetitions (with a rest of 80 s after each series) on an isokinetic dynometer to evaluate if Creatine has an impact on anabolic signalling and protein synthesis. Again, in the realm of this article, what was found interesting was that this exercise increased the synthetic rates of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic proteins by 2- 3 fold.
Looking at dynamic exercise (one legged kicking), Miller (10) saw that the rates of protein synthesis in the exercised leg increased substantially by 6 h and peaked within 24 h in both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic fractions, i.e. increases of 2.8 and 2-fold, respectively. The rates of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis in the exercised muscle had fallen slightly by 48 h but were still significantly above the rates in the rested leg. By 72 h, the rates of both fractions had decreased.
Our last look at fractional elevations will look at whether or not there is a fiber type dependency. In many animals the rate of protein synthesis is higher in slow-twitch, oxidative than fast-twitch, glycolytic muscles. To find if this held true for muscles in the human body a recent study (11) recruited nine healthy, young men and with a constant infusion looked at synthetic rates in the soleus, vastus lateralis and tricep. Type-1 fibers contributed 83 +/- 4% (mean +/-s.e.m.) of total fibers in soleus, 59 +/- 3% in vastus lateralis and 22 +/- 2% in triceps. The basal myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein fractional synthetic rates (FSR, % h(-1)) were 0.034 +/- 0.001 and 0.064 +/- 0.001 (soleus), 0.031 +/- 0.001 and 0.060 +/- 0.001 (vastus), and 0.027 +/- 0.001 and 0.055 +/- 0.001 (triceps). During amino acid infusion, myofibrillar protein FSR increased to 3-fold, and sarcoplasmic to 2-fold above basal values (P &lt; 0.001), again showing that even within differing types of muscle tissue the ratio remains.

What can be seen when reviewing these and many other papers on the subject is the response to resistance training of fractional elevation remains in line with the results of feeding, both are elevated but the slower turnover proteins (myofibrillar) generally show a larger magnitude in increase. Since these studies show that this holds true with resistance training, dynamic exercise and HFES, all utilizing differing intensities and work output, it seems unlikely that the rep range is the sole cause of any increase in sarcoplasmic fraction up-regulation.

Nuclear Domains
It is well established that satellite cell contribution is a very important factor in muscle hypertrophy (12,13). As a cell grows and increases it’s cytoplasmic volume the nucleus must maintain mRNA production for the entire area of increased size of cytoplasm (14). Since muscle cells are multi-nucleic, each nucleus controls mRNA over a finite area or its domain (14,15), hence the term nuclear domain.

Skeletal muscle hypertrophy has shown to induce increases in myonuclei and or increases in domain size (16). Resistance training has reported a very broad range of increases in fiber hypertrophy (17). In several hypertrophy studies it appears that there is a limit that needs to be reached before domain size increases necessitates increased nuclei donation. Studies that have shown significant increase in hypertrophy, above 26%, also showed large additions of myonuclei in animals (18-20) and in humans (21).

Work in humans is rather limited but what can be seen in this smaller body of work is very interesting. Acutely, resistance training and resistance type training do not exert the same magnitude of response in humans as what is seen in smaller animals.  

A recent study (22) examining the acute effect of training showed less significant changes in donated nuclei and in fact after an acute bout of (a) fifty one legged ‘drop down’ jumps were performed from a stable platform of 45 cm, (b) eight sets of ten maximal eccentric knee extensions at –30 degree/s using an isokinetic dynamometer and © eight sets of ten maximal eccentric knee extensions at –180 degree/s using an isokinetic dynamometer, satellite cell proliferation did occur but there was no increased satellite cell donation. Apparently a single bout in humans is not enough to induce the same changes seen in smaller animals.

Kadi looked at chronic application in a very interesting and telling look at training and detraining. (23). In this study he subjected 15 subjects to 3 months of progressive resistance training using a 6-12 RM. The various exercises were conducted in 4–5 sets, in the first weeks (training sessions 0–5) exercises involved 10–12 RM loads, followed by 10 RM loads in early weeks (training sessions 6–15), heavier loads of 6–10 RM in the later weeks (training sessions 16–30), and very heavy loads of 6–8 RM in the final weeks (training sessions 31–38). The subjects then detrained for 3 months. Satellite cell activity increased significantly over the entire training period. Reaching significance at around 30 and again at the 90-day marks. Hypertrophy of fiber increased at 30 days and 90 days, 6.7% and 17% respectively. Interestingly though was the observation that the area controlled by each nuclei was virtually unchanged over the entire training period. This clearly illustrates that the rep range was not the primary inducer of hypertrophy or domain volume changes since the fiber size and satellite cell count increased no matter the rep range. It also clearly indicates that the duration of chronic training is a key element in both hypertrophy and satellite cell activity.

An earlier study by the same researcher (24) saw a concomitant increase in satellite cell count and an increase in myonuclei donation over a 10-week training protocol in female athletes. The muscle examined in this study was the trapezius so it could be that the increase could be muscle specific, as it’s been shown that the trapezius has a higher androgen receptor content (25). This may have also been another reason why the previously cited work by Kadi showed such a difference as the biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis.

In summary it is very common to see studies reflecting both increased protein synthesis and hypertrophy with a myriad of rep ranges and resistance training protocols. The extent of hypertrophy may be a direct reflection in increased translational efficiency or an increase in pre-translational abundance of mRNA. The differences may be owing to the training status of the individual and not necessarily the rep range used in the resistance training routine. Although it appears that the rep range will have an impact on metabolic shifts in isoform content, this does not change the sarcoplasmic vs. contractile protein synthesis ratio but merely dictates which fiber type will experience the greater amount of hypertrophy.

As stated in Rennie’s 2004 review (26), it may take 20 weeks of resistance training to increase hypertrophy by 20%. This coincides very well with the research presented in this article, as it appears that the change in fiber size has a direct correlation to when satellite cells donate their nuclei for continued domain regulation. Therefore moderate increases in nuclear domain are very possible without the aided donation of nuclei from satellite cells and this does not appear to be rep range dependant. A statement can also be made that the results seen in small animals and humans may be very different. This may be owing to the extent of damage that is seen and how hypertrophy and necrotic damage stimulate the satellite pool differently but that is beyond the scope of this article.

Dan Moore  
Hypertrophy-Research.com

(1)Changes in rates of protein synthesis breakdown during hypertrophy of the anterior and posterior latissimus dorsi muscles. Biochem. J. 176:407–17
(2)Protein turnover during skeletal muscle hypertrophy.Fed. Proc. 39:42–47
(3)Synthesis rates of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein fractions in different muscles and the changes observed during postnatal development and in response to feeding and starvation Biochem. J. (1983) 214,587-592
(4)Increased rates of muscle protein turnover and amino acid transport after resistance exercise in humans. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 268: E514–E520, 1995.
(5)Changes in human muscle protein synthesis following resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 73: 1383–1388,1992.
(6)Resistance exercise acutely increases MHC and mixed muscle protein synthesis rates in 78–84 and 23–32 yr olds Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 278: E620–E626, 2000.
(7) Selective activation of AMPK-PGC-1alpha or PKB-TSC2-mTOR signaling can explain specific adaptive responses to endurance or resistance training-like electrical muscle stimulation. FASEB J. 2005 May;19(7):786-8. Epub 2005 Feb 16.
(8) Stimulation of human quadriceps protein synthesis after strenuous exercise: no effects of varying intensity between 60 and 90% of one repetition maximum (1RM). J Physiol 547.P, P16.
(9) No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1089-94.
(10)Coordinated collagen and muscle protein synthesis in human patella tendon and quadriceps muscle after exercise.J Physiol. 2005 Sep 15;567(Pt 3):1021-33.
(11)Protein synthesis rates in human muscles: neither anatomical location nor fibre-type composition are major determinants. J Physiol. 2005 Feb 15;563(Pt 1):203-11. Epub 2004 Dec 20.
(12)Gamma irradiation prevents compensatory hypertrophy of overloaded mouse extensor digitorum longus muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 73:2538–43
(13)Cellular molecular responses to increased skeletal muscle loading after irradiation. Am. J. Physiol.
Cell Physiol. 283:C1182–95
(14)The control of cell mass and replication. The DNA unit-a personal 20 year study. Early Hum Dev 12, 211-239.
(15) Nuclear Domains in Muscle Cells. Cell 59, 771-772
(16)Regulation of Skeletal muscle fiber size, shape and function. J Biochem (Suppl. 1), 123-133
(17) Exercise, protein metabolism, and muscle growth. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Mar;11(1):109-32. Review.
(18)Morphometric analyses on the muscles of exercise trained and untrained dogs. Am J Anat. 1983 Mar;166(3):359-68.
(19)Plasticity of myonuclear number in hypertrophied and atrophied mammalian skeletal muscle fibers. J Appl Physiol. 1995 May;78(5):1969-76.
(20)Modulation of myonuclear number in functionally overloaded and exercised rat plantaris fibers.J Appl Physiol. 1999 Aug;87(2):634-42.
(21)Is Hypertrophy limited in elderly muscle fibers? A comparison in elderly and young strength-trained men. Basic Appl Myol 1998; 8, 419-427
(22)Changes in satellite cells in human skeletal muscle after a single bout of high intensity exercise. J Physiol. 2004 Jul 1;558(Pt 1):333-40.  
(23)The effects of heavy resistance training and detraining on satellite cells in human skeletal muscles. J Physiol. 2004 Aug 1;558(Pt 3):1005-12.
(24)Concomitant increases in myonuclear and satellite cell content in female trapezius muscle following strength training. Histochem Cell Biol 2000; 113, 99-103.
(25)The expression of androgen receptors in human neck and limb muscles: effects of training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids. Histochem Cell Biol. 2000 Jan;113(1):25-9.
(26)Control of the Size of the Human Muscle Mass Annu. Rev. Physiol. 2004. 66:799–828</div>
 
I was writing a long post but gave up half-way. Let me be succinct otherwise I might quit once again.
I don't think the jury is out yet on whether different rep ranges influence different kinds of hypertrophy. It seems that the ratio sarcoplasmic/myofibrillar is mostly genetic. The things that have been proven time and again to be effective to hypertrophy are progressive load and TUT. Lift enough weight for enough number of reps and keep increasing the weight and you'll grow.
HST proposes a vanilla template that has 15 rep sets on the first 2 weeks, 10 rep sets on the next two and 5 rep sets on the last 2 (or an additional 1 or 2 weeks of negatives). So following a vanilla HST template will get you covered on the high rep stuff anyway. The purpose of the 15s, though, is to allow for an additional recovery period for the muscles and since the muscles respond to lower weights after the SD that precedes every HST cycle it also allows for a longer progression in load.

From your post you mention guys that are the same size but with a great strength difference. Mostly the difference lies (again) in genetics. The way the muscles are attached to the bones can give some people mechanical advantage (lever) over other people. There is also the neural component of strength that might be better trained in an individual than in the next.
 
Take the same person with more or less muscle mass: assuming neural conditioning is unchanged, the 'version' of that person with more muscle will be stronger than that same person with less. Comparing two different people's strength based only on perceived size doesn't seem like a good way to make any useful conclusions.
 
@electric
i know this basic things but THANKS anyway !

@lol
thanks i will read this long text on the weekend.

@ratty
yes i was already reading that
cool.gif
Sure I used the search button before posting
cool.gif


only open questions are this for me:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">TUL=
is this the same as volume ? so it doesn`t matter how long a set is and how much reps it has. it only matters how many setsxreps=volume you are using ?

TUT=
time under tension. is this the same like TUL ? or is TUT saying how long a set is taking in seconds and for how long a muscle is under tension ? so this doesn`t matter ?

So regarding TUL:
Are 2 sets with 100kg and 10 reps as effective
as 4 sets with 50kg and 10 reps ?</div>
 
TUT and TUL are really the same thing.

There is nothing magical about stopping at a certain number of reps, so if you are capable of doing 10 reps with 100 kg then 10 reps with 50 kg is borderline useless and the additional sets won't come close to making up for it.

If you think about it logically the whole concept of certain rep ranges building a certain kind of hypertrophy is flawed. Do you really think a guy who works at nothing but 20 rep sets and gets to where he can bench 200 kg for 20 hasn't developed any myofibrillar hypertrophy? Ronnie Coleman did/does everything for 10-15 reps ... is that sarcoplasm? Is he not strong? The studies I recall seeing suggest that you can't really have one without the other.
 
As Bryan and my old article states, you really can't have one without the other. What changes is the degree that either one is impacted by the training method used eg. resistance vs endurance and so on.

Will rep ranges impact one preferentially versus the other? To some extent probably so but not to the extent that one thinks.

As far as size vs strength goes, there are many things occurring that influence this (muscle morphology, neural conditioning, lever mechanics, connective tissue and so on) and as LOL says to use it as a measuring stick isn't going to be accurate.
 
Back
Top