RBE, Slow gains and modifying the program.

[jvroig]

Hey guys, especially Dan and Brak,
Brak,

Quote[/b] ]Care to entertain another question?

Sure, fire away.

Quote[/b] ] if I can feel free to eat carbs and I want a certain amount of fat...then what the heck is "eating clean" I understand I don't want too much of anything, but what is a dirty food while eating clean. Fruit is a healthy carb and as such would seem like fair game, but it is packed with sugar, is sugar dirty or clean? Many think that low-fat is eating clean, but getting a good amount of healthy fat is contrary to that...well, ok, I think everyone agrees that saturated fat and trans fat is "dirty" when "eating clean". Anything else to be on the lookout for?

Dan said the best already. What can I say, he is the Man after all. That was a really nice one, Dan

Al I can add is it depends on your state of health. And it really doesn't have much relevance on bodybuilding itself, but rather on your health in general. Too much sat fats and cholesterol is generally harmful for most everybody (what's the point of building a 300-pound hulk body if you'll just fall down and die because of a heart attack the moment your girlfriend unhooks her bra?

), while trans fats are (as far as I know) still the devil's work.

Last I checked, there is still a debate whether "too much" sugar harmful - or rather, just how much is "too much", as there is still, as far as I know, no real strict dietary limit to sugar intake - supported by real scientific and/or statistical evidence, anyway. So eat fruits or chocolates or whatever, no biggie. As long as your calories are in check, your macronutrient ratio is more or less maintained (if you are real strict with it), and you workout religiously, I doubt eating a few chocolate bars with your diet will make you any fatter than you really will be even without them. Of course, if you are diabetic or something, then naturally you should know what to avoid.

Just avoid what you know will be harmful to you health-wise, that's "eating cleanly" as I see it - but no direct relevance at all to bodybuilding as far as I can tell - unless some new science shows up and tells me otherwise, in which case I'd love to get a copy of it to study.

In the meantime, I'll be digging into my post-meal chocolate bar. Regards!
-JV

 

[Fausto]

Brak

Share the feeling, I am also in teh pharmaceutical industry.

Here is something that may give you a good idea of the whole" clean eating issue, I find this guy also writing no-nonsense advice IMO, obviously others may think otherwise

Stop Counting, Focus on Foods

I am glad JV got you going again, for a while I thought this was gonna get ugly!

 

[Jester]

Health authorities always seem to comment on high fat and high protein diets, without discussing high carb diets.

Does it seem to anyone else that if the body is "designed" to eat a certain way, then the diet would consist of lots of red meat - essentially - and some fruits and veges, but not many/any other carbs..?

Think about what was eaten for 40,000 years before the last two millenia....off topic I know

Re: CHO : Protein ratio - they produce the same amount of energy per unit mass correct?

So a caloric ratio will be the same as mass intake ratio?

So if I'm taking in about 300gms of protein . . . I should be taking in 2kgs of carbs . . .?? Or am I just confused . . .?

 

[Fausto]

Jester

Quote[/b] ]So if I'm taking in about 300gms of protein . . . I should be taking in 2kgs of carbs . . .?? Or am I just confused . . .?

Hummmmm...starting to sound like an elephant!

Basic, basic....the fats and carbs in one's diet simply simply slow down the use of carbs for energy, as well as balance the whole equation, carbs are needed in bigger quantities for workouts, protein is used a lot slower and so are fats.

Remember that without enough carbs, your body will start scavenging on protein, when cortisol is released this tends to come from muscle (hmmm....not good), so eating carbs before a bout of exercise is a good startegy as the metabolism processes this first.

As conditioning improves tough your body switches to fats for energy after a while ( agood thing if you ask me).

I think Dan and JV can cover this more in detail, I don't want to go off track here

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]Does it seem to anyone else that if the body is "designed" to eat a certain way, then the diet would consist of lots of red meat - essentially - and some fruits and veges, but not many/any other carbs..?

Simply take note that, biologically and in comparison to most pure carnivores (we humans being omnivores - we just eat whatever), we don't really seem to be "designed" to eat read meat essentially at all.

Quote[/b] ]So if I'm taking in about 300gms of protein . . . I should be taking in 2kgs of carbs

If you want to keep a specific ratio, then yes. But the point of following the ratio is to see if you are eating too much of something, and then adust your diet accordingly.

In that regard, yes, you are a bit confused. Set your calorie needs first, then apply the ratio you want, not the other way around.

 

[Fausto]

Guys
Hate to have to get into this so forgive me upfront for sounding like the preacher next door

but here is what we were designed to eat.

Quote[/b] ]Genesis 1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food.
30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every animal that creepeth upon the earth, in
which is life, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so.

And funny enough this applied to carnivores too

 

[imported_dkm1987]

All biblical references aside.

If we are going to get into this discussion how about we move this to the Diet Forum.

 

[Brak]

Good Call!

 

[Aaron_F]

Im fat and lazy

trans fat your way to tighter abs

Effects of diets enriched in saturated (palmitic), monounsaturated (oleic), or trans (elaidic) fatty acids on insulin sensitivity and substrate oxidation in healthy adults.

Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Champagne CM, Most MM, Lefevre M, DeLany JP, Denkins YM, Rood JC, Veldhuis J, Bray GA.

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808, USA.

OBJECTIVE: Diets high in total and saturated fat are associated with insulin resistance. This study examined the effects of feeding monounsaturated, saturated, and trans fatty acids on insulin action in healthy adults. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: A randomized, double-blind, crossover study was conducted comparing three controlled 4-week diets (57% carbohydrate, 28% fat, and 15% protein) enriched with different fatty acids in 25 healthy men and women. The monounsaturated fat diet (M) had 9% of energy as C18:1cis (oleic acid). The saturated fat diet (S) had 9% of energy as palmitic acid, and the trans fatty acid diet (T) had 9% as C18:1trans. Body weight was kept constant throughout the study. After each diet period, insulin pulsatile secretion, insulin sensitivity index (S(I)) by the minimal model method, serum lipids, and fat oxidation by indirect calorimetry were measured. RESULTS: Mean S(I) for the M, S, and T diets was 3.44 +/- 0.26, 3.20 +/- 0.26, and 3.40 +/- 0.26 x 10(-4) min(-1). microU(-1). ml(-1), respectively (NS). S(I) decreased by 24% on the S versus M diet in overweight subjects but was unchanged in lean subjects (NS). Insulin secretion was unaffected by diet, whereas total and HDL cholesterol increased significantly on the S diet. Subjects oxidized the least fat on the M diet (26.0 +/- 1.5 g/day) and the most fat on the T diet (31.4 +/- 1.5 g/day) (P = 0.02). CONCLUSIONS: Dietary fatty acid composition significantly influenced fat oxidation but did not impact insulin sensitivity or secretion in lean individuals. Overweight individuals were more susceptible to developing insulin resistance on high-saturated fat diets.

 

[Jester]

I'm not actually THAT confused, but it just seems that the optimal ratio doesn't quite fit with caloric intake...so is optimal achievable?

Oh and re: eating green herbs - we don't get energy from most plant matter...but lets not turn this into a discussion about relevance of bible.


Aaron - are those subjects exercising or not?

 

[Fausto]

Jester, guys

Quote[/b] ]Oh and re: eating green herbs - we don't get energy from most plant matter...but lets not turn this into a discussion about relevance of bible.

that was never my intention and I somewhat knew you guys were gonna knock this one over my head, I simply wanted to emphasize the "design" part.

And Jester, one must interpret this one deeper than that, Adventists have studies proving that the vegetarian diet is the healthiest, however as for the RDA's on vitamin packs etc, yadayadayada, the studies never include active people much less "muscle heads"

.

Dan...I am happy to have the thread transferred to the appropriate place.

By the way even though I am adventist, I have trouble with the vegetarian diet issue, so I am not, but admit to liking the taste of most of the stuff they cook.

 

[Jester]

I'm sure that a vegetarian diet is healthy, and plausible for a BB'er - look @ Bill Pearl, circa '71 - or check out his book.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (Jester @ Oct. 11 2005,7:52)]Aaron - are those subjects exercising or not?

probably not

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (Jester @ Oct. 11 2005,8:30)]I'm sure that a vegetarian diet is healthy, and plausible for a BB'er - look @ Bill Pearl, circa '71 - or check out his book.

there is a differnece between staying the size that Bill was on a vegetable based diet, and actually attaining the mass.

 

[jvroig]

Bill Pearl didn't get to his size a vegetarian? (He was a meat-muncher too then just became a veggie-dude after growing massive? )

Don't you have even a single PL friend who's a vegetarian? Or know anybody at all who's grown huge, whether BB or PL?

 

[Aaron_F]

From what I remember of him, that is correct. its been a looong time since i read his book.

off all of the people I have met, or talked to I think I know one big vegetarian.  Mike Mahler (sp?)
its not to say that a vegetarian wont get big, its just sometimes a touch harder, so they are less common.  Even worse if they are a vegan or fruitarian  

 

[faz]

the only big vegetarian i know is mighty joe young

 

[Fausto]

I thought that there were some other vegetarian body builders, Bob Paris strikes me as one if I am correct?

His physique was good IMO.

No comments on other life style options, those are purely personnal.

 

[Jester]

True true.

Pearl was a meat-aholic until one day he decided that a whole host of niggles, pains and so on were too much and he went to the doctor.

His blood pressure was excessively high, cholesterol too high and so on....the doctor was concerned he'd drop dead sometime soon, made a lot of suggestions about nutrition and lifestyle..

..basically he phased out red meat, then one day @ a chicken joint saw a growth on the joint of something he was about to eat with his wife, phased that out too....then there was the mercury hurrah about fish, so that went as well...which left him as a vegetarian.

This was about '65 I think...his last Mr Universe @ age 41, when he called out everyone on stage was '71.

Bill used steroids for a period of about 3-4months, this was in their early phases and the stuff he was using was what they gave to bulls...but other than that he was clean.