Same old, same old

Old and Grey

Super Moderator
Staff member
I know, or at least I think I know, the slight procedural differences between drop sets, Blades MYO reps, Rest and Pause, DogCrap's training methods, etc. but I don't see how there is much difference, in the end, between the drop sets I was doing 50 years ago and all these "NEW" methods based on a half century of research. I know Dan Moore could answer that very easily with 37 footnotes attached but, truthfully, I would not understand what he said no matter how many times I read it.  So, can some mortal in HST land tell me in plain English how these seemingly very similar training techniques give what is purported to be significantly different results? Yeah, I know the buzz words like effective reps and activation reps but in the end, I don't see any real difference. Help me out here guys. How about you Bryan, Fausto, et al?

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I'm not one of your called out experts, O&G, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'll try:

Drop sets are trying to achieve as much fatigue as possible.  Dropping weight clearly means they aren't focused on load, but rather squeezing as much work out of the muscle as possible.  Fatigue might be one pathway to hypertrophy, but other methods you mention attempt to manage fatigue rather than create as much as possible.

Rest pause is a technique, and the name is applied to what both Blade and DC do.  The original rest pause was taking a very heavy weight like maybe your 3RM and doing singles with 5-10 seconds rest between until failure.  I'm assuming this is not what you are interested in.

DC has you train to failure, take your rest, do it again with the same weight, take your rest, and do it again.  It keeps the load the same so you are attempting to maximize it.  It should provide very high stimulation, but understand that you are hitting failure 3 times per workout for each muscle you train.  That makes a tremendous drain on your CNS and requires a lot of recovery time, which is why DC trains each muscle once every 5 days.

Blade and his Myo-Reps do the "activation set" to create some fatigue and hopefully recruit all the muscle fibers, but they stop when the rep speed slows rather than hammering it to failure.  Small difference seemingly, but a rather large difference in the demands made on your CNS.  Then, in theory, your rest/pause sets done afterwards should have full recruitment for every rep.  Again, he does not have you take each of these mini sets to failure, so hopefully you are working the muscle hard with all fibers participating (in theory) but not stressing your CNS so much and requiring as much recovery.  This should allow more frequent training.

Drop sets = going for fatigue

DC = going for max load

MyoReps = going for max load while saving your CNS

Which will work best depends on your recovery ability to a large degree, as well as how your body responds.  In my experience it seems like some guys respond better to fatigue while others do better by just focusing on getting as strong as possible.  The typical YMMV disclaimer applies here.

Eyes glazed over yet?  
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No eyes glazed over but appreciate your input Leegee. Unfortunately, I don't believe the minor changes in methodology result in differences in managing fatigue to any measurable extent. After all, Blade says you can either increase the rest period or lessen the load and have a shorter rest period and accomplish the same thing. Therefore, he is basically saying that drop sets are also a way to manage fatigue. Also, unless you are using machines whereby you just change pins, deloading the bar or changing DB's takes time...i.e. a rest period. Lastly, you do not have to take drop sets to failure. In fact, taking any set to failure is sure to accomplish one thing over time...injury. That is why even the die-hard HIT fans like Dr. D  no longer favor it.
 
Not to mention that gyms are always full of guys who are lifting the same weights they were 5 years ago, weigh the same and are no stronger. But they still are getting "one more rep" on every set!
Definition of insanity anyone?
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(leegee38 @ Jan. 30 2010,7:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm not one of your called out experts, O&amp;G, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'll try:

Drop sets are trying to achieve as much fatigue as possible.  Dropping weight clearly means they aren't focused on load, but rather squeezing as much work out of the muscle as possible.  Fatigue might be one pathway to hypertrophy, but other methods you mention attempt to manage fatigue rather than create as much as possible.

Rest pause is a technique, and the name is applied to what both Blade and DC do.  The original rest pause was taking a very heavy weight like maybe your 3RM and doing singles with 5-10 seconds rest between until failure.  I'm assuming this is not what you are interested in.

DC has you train to failure, take your rest, do it again with the same weight, take your rest, and do it again.  It keeps the load the same so you are attempting to maximize it.  It should provide very high stimulation, but understand that you are hitting failure 3 times per workout for each muscle you train.  That makes a tremendous drain on your CNS and requires a lot of recovery time, which is why DC trains each muscle once every 5 days.

Blade and his Myo-Reps do the &quot;activation set&quot; to create some fatigue and hopefully recruit all the muscle fibers, but they stop when the rep speed slows rather than hammering it to failure.  Small difference seemingly, but a rather large difference in the demands made on your CNS.  Then, in theory, your rest/pause sets done afterwards should have full recruitment for every rep.  Again, he does not have you take each of these mini sets to failure, so hopefully you are working the muscle hard with all fibers participating (in theory) but not stressing your CNS so much and requiring as much recovery.  This should allow more frequent training.

Drop sets = going for fatigue

DC = going for max load

MyoReps = going for max load while saving your CNS

Which will work best depends on your recovery ability to a large degree, as well as how your body responds.  In my experience it seems like some guys respond better to fatigue while others do better by just focusing on getting as strong as possible.  The typical YMMV disclaimer applies here.

Eyes glazed over yet?  
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Great post leegee38!

I'll add my 0.2 in a minute.
 
[Warning, long post. Old and Grey, if you want you can skip to the last paragraph. Everything in the middle is just scientific rambling.
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Old and Grey,

First off, great question. Surely there must be something there for hypertrophy-specific lifters otherwise these guys wouldn’t be trying to come up with new methods that basically achieve the same thing. I believe that what they are trying to achieve is two fold, 1) maximum recruitment of motor units, and 2) high metabolic stress.

I won’t get into the first issue right now. I’ve addressed it before with little avail. In short, maximum recruitment of motor units does not seem to require maximum fatigue or maximum loads. Other wise, we would only see hypertrophy in studies using 100% 1RM weight loads, and this is clearly not the case. The overwhelming majority achieve the highest rates of hypertrophy in the 60-75% range with pre-conditioned or untrained lifters. Some studies have produced results with less and others have produced results with more, but the ball park is clearly 60-85% to cover even veteran lifters.

As for the second point, metabolic stress, this issue has come to the forefront in research circles because of all the “occlusion” studies. Occlusion studies set up a lifting condition in which the blood flow is blocked or severely reduced to the working muscle, usually by using a tourniquet. These studies often incorporate as little as 20% 1RM for the load yet still produce respectable increases in strength and on occasion hypertrophy. Once again, these studies use pre-conditioned subjects as a general rule.

There was published in 2005 an influential study by Goto in Med Sci Sports Exerc. (Goto K, et al. The impact of metabolic stress on hormonal responses and muscular adaptations. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Jun;37(6):955-63.) This study compared two methods of completing a fix number of reps (10) with a fixed weight load (75%1RM). One group did all 10 reps all the way through till the last rep, then rested as you normally would for 1 minute before the next set. This is the traditional way we lift as well. The second group, used the same relative weight loads, but half way through each set, they would stop and rest for 30 seconds before finishing the set. This was done in an attempt to reduce the metabolic demand of the set.

So basically you have one group doing 3 sets of 10 reps with their 10RM. You are comparing their results with another group doing 3 sets of 5 with their 10RM.

Their results showed a ~13% increase in muscle cross sectional area in the no-rest group and a ~4% increase in the rest-midway group.

This study, along with the vascular occlusion studies as driven academics back to the “it’s the burn” the causes hypertrophy mindset. (They seem to have forgotten the years of research showing superior hypertrophy produced by eccentric contractions that produce little metabolic stress compared to concentric contractions.)

I personally believe that metabolic disturbances within the muscle facilitate muscle hypertrophy in untrained subjects but are not sufficient to cause hypertrophy in well trained lifters. It’s like saying ketchup is really what defines a burger, as a burger, not the beef patty and bun. Sure, the ketchup makes a burger easier to enjoy, but it isn’t really what defines it as a burger. And focusing on different condiments is what Old and Grey perceives is going on with all the different lifting styles he mentioned.

Before I finish this overly long post let me say there has been plenty of consensus and corroboration since Goldberg (Goldberg, 1975) first postulated that load itself could induced muscle hypertrophy. Not only that but much work has been done to elucidate the phenomena further.

In muscle cells, the ability to perceive and respond to mechanical load is called “mechanoperception”. This process of converting the mechanical signals of lifting a weight into the biochemical signals that lead to hypertrophy is called mechanotransduction (Hornberger, 2004). Muscle cells, in turn, are called “mechanocytes”. This simply means that muscle cells have the ability to sense mechanical load and convert it into biochemical signals that regulate protein synthesis. Terms such as “mechanotransduction” and “mechanocyte” are now common in research about all kinds of cells that respond to being pulled and stretched. Everything from skin to blood vessels use mechanotransduction.

The process of mechanotransduction in skeletal muscle is pretty straight forward. Let’s say for example that you are doing bicep curls. As you lift the weight, the load of the dumbbell is transferred from your hand to the insertion of the biceps on up through the length of the muscle. It’s this stretch, or strain, that initiates the signaling cascade that ends in muscle hypertrophy (Zanchi, 2008). One thing to mention here is that this process does not necessarily require significant fatigue, although fatigue can change the distribution of the strain. And metabolic disturbances within the muscle certainly improve the anabolic stimulus in a number of ways, some of which may involve adapting to maintain higher cellular energy reserves to fuel high rates of protein synthesis.

Ok, that plenty of typing just to say, I agree with you Old and Grey.
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It is the HST principle that the metabolic disturbance created towards the end of a set with a sufficient number of contractions facilitates muscle hypertrophy and any good hypertrophy-specific approach should allow for any of a number of methods to produce those metabolic disturbances be it drop sets, rest pause, burn-out set, short rest sets, etc, etc.

-bryan

References:
Goldberg AL, et al. Mechanism of work-induced hypertrophy of skeletal muscle. Med Sci Sports. 1975 Fall;7(3):185-98.

Hornberger TA, et al. Mechanotransduction and the regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. Proc Nutr Soc. 2004 May;63(2):331-5

Zanchi NE, et al. Mechanical stimuli of skeletal muscle: implications on mTOR/p70s6k and protein synthesis. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2008 Feb;102(3):253-63.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So basically you have one group doing 3 sets of 10 reps with their 10RM. You are comparing their results with another group doing 3 sets of 5 with their 10RM.</div>
You meant 6 sets of 5 there, right Bryan?
 
Well, from my point of view one of the most significant changes between yesteryear's fatigue inducting training to today's is that failure has gone from important to undesired. Drop sets of old had you banging reps until failure, reducing weights and doing that again. Myorep uses the rep speed as an indicator of fatigue and has you stopping 1 or 2 reps short of failure. Other then that, changes seem minor. Myorep even uses drop sets kind of arrangement when you get to a weight near your 5-8RM
 
from Kelly Baggett (my notes say) who may have been quoting Lyle McDonald, which sounds alot like what Bryan espouses:

- If you increase your muscle mass by 50 lbs, about 45 pounds of that mass will come about through improvement in tension related processes, and about 5 pounds will be from “fatigue” processes. However, the extra 5 pounds of fatigue related growth will be very “pretty.”

- Growth is stimulated from a combination of tension, total work, and fatigue. ...progressively increasing tension at a given level of work is the primary stimulus for ongoing gains in growth. Factors related to fatigue might add around 10% to that.

- while the lighter load lifted in a state of fatigue, often associated with more repetitions, will tend to induce more growth through increased “energy and water storage” mechanisms.

- Results that come from tension take place over a long period of time and tend to stick around for a long period of time. Results that come from “fatigue” (a.k.a. – the “pump”), occur much quicker and dissipate just as quickly.

- The muscle adapts to fatigue by storing more “energy” (aka – glycogen.) to better deal with the fatigue induced. The amount of extra glycogen storage that can be stimulated with even very brief bouts of fatigue training (a triple drop set for example), is very impressive, nearly rivaling that of specific short-term endurance protocols designed to double glycogen storage increases.

- Fatigue makes muscles &quot;swole&quot;: Although the growth that occurs from fatigue only accounts for maybe 5-10% of the size increases, it gives the impression of contributing a lot more then that, since the glycogen storage increase and training methods associated with it also give one a tremendous and immediate “pump.”
 
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(Lol @ Feb. 01 2010,7:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So basically you have one group doing 3 sets of 10 reps with their 10RM. You are comparing their results with another group doing 3 sets of 5 with their 10RM.</div>
You meant 6 sets of 5 there, right Bryan?</div>
Well yes, technically it would be 6 sets. Or 3 sets with a 30 second rest between reps 5 &amp; 6.
 
I have tried to post several times including one rather long post detailing how I incorporate these efficiency techniques into my routine but cyber demons keep eating them.
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(Old and Grey @ Feb. 02 2010,1:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have tried to post several times including one rather long post detailing how I incorporate these efficiency techniques into my routine but cyber demons keep eating them.    
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I'd still be interested in hearing about it. Write it up in a Word doc or something then paste it in. That way it can't time out on you.
 
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(Old and Grey @ Feb. 02 2010,9:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">OK, will do this evening Bryan. Now I am off to the beach, once again. Say hello to the snow for me.    
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Dont rub it in our face!
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Ok. Because I am typing on a mini-computer with a lousy keyboard, I will make this the short version without too much explanation but feel free to ask questions and I will try to answer them.

First, let me start by reiterating that, solely in my opinion, very little progress has been made in the last 50 years in how to lift weights to increase muscle mass. Most of the programs today are basically what John Grimek used in the 1950’s.  I also grew up with Mike Katz and have known him for 50 years and he still recommends the training routines he used in the 60’s.

What I think has changed is we have learned how to build muscle more efficiently. That is, forget the two hour multi split-split routines and all that garbage. It probably will cause you more grief in the end than muscle it builds. Stick with the basic tenets as Bryan has outlined in HST. I choose Bryan as my go-to source because he goes through the boring research articles and summarizes them into the principles of HST for us. Besides, he is about the first person to reasonably put together in a concise form, what has worked over the years so you don’t have to go out and buy the latest secret program to instant success…it does not exist.

Now to my program. I work each body part three times per week over a 7 day period. I do a modified push/pull split routine the 1st and 2nd day of the week. On the 4th day I do a full body routine using different exercises than I did for days 1 and 2 with less volume. Then on days 5 and 6, I will repeat the same routine as days 1 and 2 but having increased the weight a bit.

My current program consists of:

Day 1:
Incline Bench Press
Seated shoulder press
Close grip bench press.

Day 2:
Pull ups
Hammer curls
Box squats

Day 4:
Flat bench press
Shrug bar shrugs
Tricep push downs
Seated rows
Concentration curls
Leg press

Days 5 and 6:
Same as days 1 and 2 but with more weight.

Now for the fun part. On day 1, 2, 5 and 6, I do one set that I call the pre activation set because it only activates all the muscles fibers on the last 3 or 4 reps. I wait 10 seconds the repeat the set with half the reps. I wait, with the bar out of my hands, another 10 seconds and repeat the previous half set. I then wait 15 seconds and split the previous number of reps in half again and then wait another 15 seconds and do it again with the same weight. So, if you are using 12 reps as your first target reps, you follow up with subsequent sets of 6, 6 3 and 3. Depending on how strong or weak I feel that day, I may go for more reps, increase tor decrease.he weight on subsequent sets. My body and mind tell me what to do.

For Day 4, which is my third workout day, I do my one pre activation set and only 2 subsequent sets as I will be doing all body parts that day.

Days 5 and 6 are a repeat of 1 and 2 but using a weight closer to my “failure” weight.

That is it for each body part. No more. No less. My workouts take 20 minutes each and I feel like I am ready to kick *** after my workout. I don’t feel like puking. I feel like I could take on Mike Tyson.

As for target reps, I typically do a week of 12’s, a week of 10’s, 2 weeks of 8’s and 3 weeks of 5’s. If I feel that I haven’t reached a weight close to my failure weight plus 1 or 2 reps, I may do another week of any given rep range until I hit that point. I do a 1 to 2 week strategic reconditioning break usually after 6 or so weeks. For a 6 week run, I will take 1 week off. For an 8 week run, I will take 2 weeks off. I use that time to set up my next routine on the computer and look at it every day or so and compare it to past workouts until I am satisfied it will let me meet my next set of goals.

If I miss a workout, I have time built in to make it up another day.  If need be, I can turn a 2 day routine into a routine similar to Day 4 and catch up that way.

How does it work? Well as Bryan has mentioned, it is hard to judge on an experienced lifter. However, In the last 3 months I have put on 8 pounds of what I believe to be muscle. My body fat has probably slide over to two digits now but at 5’8” and 192 pounds I can’t complain as I approach 65. I promised to post pics on my 65th birthday and I will do that. But my chest is now 48”, my arms are almost 17” and my waist is still under 34” so you can pretty much guess at my build. I don’t think I will see washboard abs again but so what? Your prespective on what is important changes as you grow older.

Although I have stated I have not seen much change in technique in the last 50 years, I have seen a tremendous change in learning how nutrition can impact our training. Unfortunately it is somewhat clouded by steroids but the scientific advances have been astounding. Just look at the change in the longevity tables.

Where will exercise go in the future? I personally believe that frequency is a frontier that has not been thoroughly investigated yet. I think I may try going up to 12-10 minute full body workouts someday before I get too old. That should be fun.

I know I have missed a lot here but it is the best I could do as my priority right this moment is to enjoy a rum punch on the beach with the wife. Eat your heart out Joe!

Until then, feel free to rip my thoughts apart.
 
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O&G,

No references here at all.

All the old school guys and the newer approaches still share more commonalities than differences, they all still have to lift the weight, set it down and lift again. This is nothing new.

About the only thing fatigue management allows is doing more of it, plain and simple.

See no citations or big scientific mumbo jumbo jargin.

In response to Bryan referencing Goto et al, there is a lot in that study that is questionable to say the least wrt fatigue and the metabolic turnover itself being a stimulus. I still think this is mostly owing to the hormonal hypothesis which lately has largely been debunked.

But any contraction has a metabolic price to pay and it is unavoidable.
 
More work

Getting a little more sciency:p Dentons work Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2006, 20(3), 528–534 looking how intra-set rest impacts the amount of work achieved it's pretty apparent that adding in brief rest during a set can change not only the amount of work performed but also the force per rep.

Now if indeed the force/volume requisite is viable then it's obvious that the intra-set rest protocol has merit.

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Expanding on the more work hypothesis

One item that needs to be mentioned, in light of this discussion topic, is how training affects it all.

We all know there is a sliding scale (to coin a phrase from Bryan) in which as one becomes more trained the same stimulus produces less change.

But when more work is added this seems to then kick up off the synthetic machinery (ala HST).

Of course this is nothing new but what I wanted to add is that some of these newer "systems" expound and capitalize on that feature of homeostasis.

Take any system and using HST as an example Bryan prescribes going from 15s to 10s to 5s to Negs, a very systematic approach to keeping the load and hence stimulus novel.

What some of the newer systems then employ is tweaks, ala Myoreps, MS, DC or what have you, and yes O&G even drops (when used intelligently). Which all add to the work done and hence (hopefully) creating a novel stimulus unlike in the olden days when these tweaks were used to create fatigue (since it was once thought that fatigue itself was the stimulus). But one also needs to understand at some point just doing more reps (without an increase in load or even a decrease, ala drops) isn't the same.

For those that like to read the science some great papers looking specifically on how training impacts changes in synthetic rates of both fractions of muscle proteins can be read online for free.

http://jp.physoc.org/content/568/1/283.full

http://jp.physoc.org/content/586/15/3701.long#ref-35
 
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