SD for a month - how would it effect things?

J

JonnyH

New Member
Was just reading the post on HST summed up over on lyle's website. Just to understand where im coming from this is a quick excerpt from part of the conversation (Im sure lots of you already read it ages ago but anyway):

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">LYLE: Argubaly the biggest difference in what I wrote 3 years and ago and now has to do with RBE. I am no longer convinced that 7-10 days off does jack squat in terms of affecting it. I sort of alluded to that in the original piece, research shows that RBE is still significant 6 weeks-6 months down the road. Doesn't mean that time off, or a week of light training isn't a damn good idea, especially after heavy negatives, but I doubt it's really detraining the muscle in terms of the RBE very much.
As well, and a lot of people have apparently come to this conclusion already, starting at too submax a weight so that you can add weight every workout doesn't work becuase the initial few workouits are too light to accomplish anything. Many seem to be starting at a higher %age (80% of previous best) and simply repeating the same weight more than once w/in a 2 week mini-cycle.
The idea that you have to increase load at every workout to grow is simply incorrect.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">DAN: Just to add a bit on RBE, having a change of heart I tend to agree with Lyle, 7 to 10 days off is probably only good for taking a break. It surely doesn't impact satellite cell, domain size, myosin composition or other fiber related physiological index. 30 days, that's another story.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">LYLE: But who is going to take a 30 day break? It's hard enough to get OCD athletes/bodybuilders to take time easy, much less not train for a month.

As well, any advantage has to be weighed against the huge amount of detraining that will occur.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">DAN: Huge is a pretty relative term and it's not as huge as most think. Several studies looking at detraining from 90 days to 31 weeks and even longer, show little isometric/dynamic strength loss (~8%), CSA loss isn't all that great either. Naturally this depends greatly on the length, subject training status and age.</div>

Okkkkkkk.  
wow.gif

So in light of all this i was wondering if anyone here had ever taken around a month off from training for whatever reason and how this affected their gains in muscle mass or strength? Or even if they did lose some of both, did it result in the gains coming much faster when they started training up again in a way that more than made up for anything lost?

Im not the kind of lifter that near dies at the idea of not training, so i would easily be able to take off that amount of time if it resulted in my gains coming faster so this makes me wonder.  
tounge.gif
 
I don't do SD for the very reason posted. 7-10 days isn't going to decondition the muscles significantly at all. I still take a week off after my cycle for a break, but it doesn't decondition me.
Now, if I were at a training plateau and I was convinced I was overconditioned and RBE was holding me back (which so far hasn't happened), then I would do a real SD for about a month or so to give the muscles adequate time to decondition somewhat. I think this would be beneficial to an advanced bodybuilder who is already strong and massive, nearing genetic limits, and has hit a plateau. For the average joe or jim who has lifted for less than five years straight and who is nowhere near his gentic potential, then this would be waste of time.

Just my 2 cents...
cool.gif
 
I am not sure but I have had far superior results in strength gains when I allow 1 week layoffs every 4-8 weeks. And if you split it up to where you work out every 4-6 days, then you are allowing almost a full recovery and should see some gains.

However thos splits were with working out to failure with a rep range of 8-12. I have yet to find out if i need that much of a distance between each workout.

Whenever I do this, I go to taekwondo everyday. I do not lose muscle mass from doing this.
 
i have just had 7wks of training (work etc),did not lose any muscle strength took almost a wk to regain thats OK
biggrin.gif


if you think that 9 days is not enough maybe it isnt but it would give your cns time to recover which is important.

also you could count the 15s as a deload period so 9days sd +14 days 15s=23 days
cool.gif
 
biggrin.gif
 
Thats true. I was mainly looking at it from a point of view of deconditioning the muscle for like a month perhaps making gains in 15's 10's 5's come much more rapidly than usual...which overall would increase gains in hypertrophy more so than what you would have had originally without deconditioning (assuming you hardly lose any gains during it also).
Ofcourse its probably very likely that any increase in the speed of gains only comes to about the same amount of what you would originally have gained + what you lost during deconditioning and so is completely pointless.
sad.gif
 
Add onto that the fact you just wasted a month and youd probably actually gain less than you would have originally over the time period.
mad.gif
 
<div>
(JonnyH @ Nov. 29 2006,09:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Add onto that the fact you just wasted a month and youd probably actually gain less than you would have originally over the time period.
mad.gif
</div>
your brain is going to hurt jonny
smile.gif
 
I take a week to 2 weeks SD at least every 6 weeks. How come when I start up again that I have serious DOMS? Perhaps my cells' satellite structure, whatever that means  
rock.gif
, has not changed but my muscle has deconditioned enough to hurt under a lesser load. Whowever said that you have to change a muscle's cellular structure to decondition enough to restart the growth stage? My experience, though not some &quot;peer reviewed controlled scientific experiment&quot;, would indicate otherwise.
 
I wonder if it is more for cns recovery than anything. I know after being out for a week I am anxious to get back into the gym ready to do 15's.
 
''i have just had 7wks of training (work etc),did not lose any muscle strength took almost a wk to regain thats OK ''

Hmmm, that backs up what Dan was saying. Thats funny cause I sure assumed taking 7 weeks off would be disastrous in terms of size and strength. Nice one
biggrin.gif


''I wonder if it is more for cns recovery than anything. I know after being out for a week I am anxious to get back into the gym ready to do 15's''

No. The reason Bryan recommends SD is because he believes 2 weeks is enough to start growth again with submax loads.

Dan thinks it will take longer, 30 days or so.

hope this clears things up
 
<div>
(faz @ Nov. 29 2006,03:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i have just had 7wks of training (work etc),did not lose any muscle strength took almost a wk to regain thats OK
biggrin.gif
</div>
Did you mean 7 weeks of SD?
 
<div>
(Old and Grey @ Nov. 29 2006,17:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Nov. 29 2006,03:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i have just had 7wks of training (work etc),did not lose any muscle strength took almost a wk to regain thats OK
biggrin.gif
</div>
Did you mean 7 weeks of SD?</div>
yes but it was enforced due to doing double shifts at work and injury.
but as i said i have not lost any size and my first week was hard but soon got back to my normal rep-maxes.
 
Let me see if I get this right.  If you are only lifting weights, 20reps or less, and you are sore then you have created an evnironment conducive to anabolism provide other factors are in order.  Is this statement correct?  However we know that it is not necessary to be sore to create the above anabolic environment.  If what I have stated is correct then I hypothesize that if you SD for a period of time and are afflicted with DOMS in the first, second or third work out then your SD has been successful enough to to make your muscles sensitive to the weight you have chosen for your first workout.  What do you guys think?

I would say that you could probably use weights lighter than you normally use for the first workout and thus be able to extend your cycle.
 
''you are sore then you have created an evnironment conducive to anabolism provide other factors are in order''

I think...........DOMS doesnt necessarily mean growth. I never get 'DOMS' anymore nut am still growing
biggrin.gif
 
Bryan does say:

&quot;However, a low level of DOMS is a good indicator of what kind of stimulus you created for the tissue and usually indicates that you are in the process of growth if you can maintain an adequate stimulus over time.&quot;

&quot;The problem comes when people change their workouts inappropriately based on signs of soreness. An effective workout doesn't necessarily lead to soreness. The effectiveness of a workout depends on what type of workout is imposed on tissue that is at a certain level of conditioning (i.e. resistant to damage).&quot;

So soreness is normally a good sign that your in the process of growth, however lack of soreness doesnt mean that your not in the process of growth also.

Anyway i think ima save this taking a month off idea until ive been training for a long long while as sci muscle said. Would probably be a big waste of time doing it any time soon 
biggrin.gif
 
I'm like O&amp;G in many ways; I believe 7-14 days is the best SD. Longer than that, and you're simply losing growth time, since it's working at two weeks or less for everyone on this board... even ol' farts like me and O&amp;G.

Enuff said about DOMS being an indicator...I can do arms after a deload and my tri's will kill me, but my bi's won't feel a thing - every time. But if you have some DOM's here and there, you're probably working out with enough load/intensity for growth. I'd worry a little if I never ever felt any DOMS at all. But maybe some of you younger guys don't; it's possible.
 
<div>
(style @ Nov. 30 2006,11:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think...........DOMS doesnt necessarily mean growth. I never get 'DOMS' anymore nut am still growing  
biggrin.gif
</div>
Did you miss my fourth sentence?
smile.gif


I have always had an issue with my biceps never being sore before going into HST and even after my first bulking cycle. After I did a cycle without direct bicep work, then started a new one with bicep work it was almost unbearable at first. I had even changed the deadlifts and BB rows back to overhand grip beforehand. My biceps were sore for a good 3-5 days. Also I started out at 50% of my 5RM so it wasnt like I was starting high either.
 
Guys doing a linear program like the Madcow intermediate 5x5 work up over a few weeks to where they start setting a new PR each week. Each week they add a little weight and set a new PR. When they can no longer do this, they lower the weights to what they were using a few weeks back, then work back up again over 3-4 weeks.

Usually they then can again start setting new PRs each week. If instead of backing off the weights a few weeks they just keep battling max weights they generally stay stuck.

To me, this seems to have the same effect as an SD and the rep range schemes of HST. It enables you to again start responding to progressing loads. However, note that in the 5x5 even when you back off you're still working with fairly heavy weights, not doing an HST style SD. My theory is that it work by allowing the CNS a break. Maybe it's just that whatever deconditioning is needed isn't a lot.

With HST you start with lighter weights than someone backing off weights on a 5x5, so maybe more deconditioning is needed. I'm not convinced that anyone really knows why it works though.
 
It was my 'suspicion' that a better default SD for people would be 14 days fully off.

At that half month mark, I suspected that lighter weights might actually start to do something again. I SEEMED to get better results years back with a 2 week break than only a single week.

The thing with SD is that if you tell people, say, 9-12 days, most will go for 9. Many more will 'take about a week off.'

Imho, if you want to give the SD idear a chance, opt more for two weeks fully off.

However, I have also recently noticed that with the two weeks off, you DEFINITIELY need a better break-in. HST structures this well with the 15's, but if you go too heavy too fast with two weeks off, as I found out the hard way, it seems you are actually quite a bit more likely to injure yourself, despite all the time off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top