Size And Conditioning

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Renky, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. Renky

    Renky Member

    In the past when I have watched the modern day professional Body Builders in interviews, I have noticed that the really big guys just seem to be out of breath. Now I do not take any gear or anything like that, but I am noticing that I am somewhat experiencing the same thing at times. Today I was out digging holes (the old fashioned way... with a shovel) and found myself to be a little more out of breath than what I believe I should be. Does anyone else have this occur or know what it is? I am currently around the 212-213lb mark and in my early 40's. My workouts are done with the "myo-reps" scheme and I felt this was enough of a cardio component, but maybe it isn't... I am not a big fan of cardio and just tend to avoid it like the plague, but am thinking I should probably ride a bike a couple of times a week. As posted in other discussions, I feel that adding a stack of weight (whether lean muscle or fat) can be a load on the body and maybe this is just it? I would say that I am relatively lean, but could lose about 8 - 10lbs. I think my sweet spot weight is about the 205lb mark.

    I am just curious on what people think or if anyone else has experienced similar. Thanks.
     
  2. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    I feel the older you get the more cardio is needed from a health perspective particularly the more mass you have.
     
  3. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Agree.

    LISS is going to improve your gains, and undoubtedly improve every aspect of your health.
     
  4. Renky

    Renky Member

    Thanks guys!

    LISS? I have never heard of this. What is it?

    I hate cardio :) . Is there a standard on what they say is a reasonable amount? Is there a way to implement a stronger cardio component to a weight training session?

    What is the shortness of breath thing anyway?
     
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    LISS - Low Intensity Steady State; walking, cycling, freestyle if your work capacity is there.

    I would separate weight and cardio ideally, but if together then do walking after the weights. It's probably the best lower body active recovery option there is. Doing it outdoors is less boring than treadmill IMO.
     
  6. Renky

    Renky Member

    I am probably looking at using an exercise bike. It is about my best option to do cardio. I have a desk job too, so this probably does not help me.

    Is there something wrong with high intensity short duration cardio? I have read stuff where they are finding that this is a good option.

    Is there number of times a week that I should look at? 2X a week and the rest weight lifting?

    Thanks
     
  7. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Personally I would rather walk on a daily basis, up until recently was walking 2 miles daily after my AM training session but got fed up with getting up between 5 and 5:30.
     
  8. Renky

    Renky Member

    I did some research and it seems that there is a fine line with too much cardio as well.

    Anyway... I think I am going to try adding cardio (via exercise bike) 3X a week right after a weight session. Reason is that I am more likely to do it and my body will already have an elevated heart rate.

    Hopefully this will be enough for me. I am not doing cardio for weight loss, just to better condition myself.
     
  9. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Higher intensity will impact weights recovery significantly.
     
  10. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    I don't have much to add that hasn't been said but LISS is great for health. I just had to work on diaphragmatic breathing and learning how to pace myself. I feel now my work capacity is probably higher than when I was a teenager.
     
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    This.
     
  12. Renky

    Renky Member

    Thanks guys!

    I am currently trialing jumping on the bike straight after my last set in the work out. My heart rate is already pumping from myo-repping and I feel that this is a good time for me to do some cardio. Again, I am not using cardio as a weight loss tool or anything. Just something to help me with conditioning. I will plod on and work my distances/duration up over time, but I am thinking that a 10min steady ride (not easy, but not flat out either) will do me well. Is this a fair call?
     
    adpowah likes this.
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I'd prefer to see 20minutrs at least but 10 is better than nothing.
     
  14. Renky

    Renky Member

    Fair enough, but I always hated cardio... I will try and work my way up a bit more.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Like most endeavours in life, you get out of cardio what you put in.
     
  16. k_dean_curtis

    k_dean_curtis Member

    Any type of conditioning is extremely specific, basic SAID. So many scientific studies and practical experience that this point is irrefutable. 100% of all training adaptations for aerobic conditioning happen in the muscle, 0% in internal organs.

    Try this experiment:
    1. run on a treadmill for 3 weeks, notice your improvement.
    2. now go run the same distance at the same pace outside. You will be gassed.

    Or try this one:
    1. Test Vo2 max on your bike with only your right side of the body, repeat for the left side
    2. train only your right side for 6 weeks
    3. repeat tests from #1. You will note zero improvement on the left side.

    Reverse the 2 and you will notice the exact same thing. There is no such thing as general "conditioning". Your heart and lungs are internal organs. Do you do bike/row/run/whatever for your liver? How about your spleen? Vo2Max is 96% genetic and does not carry over to any other activity.

    BodyByScience.net a la Dr Doug McGuff has lots to say on this, very good book.

    A sound weights routine such as HST or SS will give you all the conditioning you need. If you want to be good at a particular activity, do that activity exactly in the way you want to be good at.

    The reason why "2 a days" in football is 3 weeks long is that coaches have known for decades that 3 weeks is what it takes for the metabolism to adapt to any specific activity. There was an interesting case a few years ago of a man raised in Machu Picchu (high elevation), came to visit the US for 2 weeks, then returned home. He died that night from altitude sickness. This man had metabolic adaptions to high altitude his entire life, and lost it in 2 weeks of changing his environment.
     
    Old and Grey likes this.
  17. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    General conditioning is a popular training method in many sports and its benefits are obvious when you participate in them. It will improve your recovery, your disposition, it can be used as an alternative method to increase your caloric deficit and give you low-risk opportunity to train in pacing your body. Even if you reject those points, breathing is a skill and alternate activities permit a differing training environment and stimulus. Similarly General Physical Preparedness is often a positive factor towards more specific training.

    I have trained in the gym for outside runs, it is clearly more effective than not training. Being one person I hardly can argue it is as effective as training outside but the training is evident. For instance in a 10k I just ran, I trained in the gym working only on my pacing and breathing but I never went over 2-3k distance. Further I did longer duration HIIT like training that involved intervals of running. This general conditioning was clearly more effective than going into the 10k only doing weight training.

    We are not arguing VO2Max increases, you are the one bringing this up. What is being encouraged here is LISS to reduce someone's breathlessness who clearly already trains lifting.

    If you want to limit your training to lifting that is fine. And while I definitely wouldn't consider Rippetoe a major proponent of conditioning I think it should also be noted he doesn't reject it either. From the 3rd edition Starting Strength and starting on page 301 talking about working sets there is a comparison between 1rm exertion and 20rm exertion. Regarding 20rm sets he says, "...the body gets better at responding to the high metabolic demand that is created. Systemic adaptations are primarily cardiovascular in nature, since the main source of stress involves managing blood flow and oxygen supply during and after the set." So while I don't believe anyone was specifically talking about training your oragans, Rippetoe is clearly suggesting you can. Granted Rippetoe has plenty of criticism for his beliefs but to recommend SS as a complete training system that clearly holds a different training suggestions should be noted. While you may feel SS is all that is needed, Rippetoe himself notes that training that isn't SS and is aerobic creates beneficial adaptations.

    Further he has a diagram talking about the metabolic systems used in different exercises. Here he illustrates how Rest > Walk > Jog > Run > Sprint progresses from Aerobic to Anaerobic and require different metabolic responses, there he says, "no activity uses only one metabolic pathway, so the illustration above represents a sliding scale of continually increasing intensity of activity." Clearly Mark doesn't argue for much conditioning (and does not include it in his beginner programming) however he clearly does not reject the benefits, as appears to be your stance.

    Again, if you don't want to add an aerobic component to you training, great. To argue that adding one is useless however is ignorant.

    So it takes 3 weeks, unless it takes 2 weeks and you die? Kidding. I am going to assume you are trying to argue something very reasonable and I simply don't get it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  18. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    I recently included LISS into my training. After 40 minutes of weight training i do 20 minutes of LISS at 55% of my max heart rate. At what intensity are you guys performing LISS?
     
  19. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    How are you calculating your max heart rate, reason I ask is if you use the 220 minus your age it does not work for me.

    For me I had to calculate my max heart rate from a heart rate monitor by running as fast as I can for 3 minutes at an even pace, then jog for 3 minutes and repeat the max run again taking my max heart rate during the 2nd run. Then you subtract your resting heart rate from your max rate to find a working heart rate so when I was running regularly a few years ago my max heart rate was just over 190 (from memory) and my resting was just under 50 so let's just say 190 and 50 which gives me my working heart rate of 140 then you take a percentage (use your 55%) which would be 77 and add your resting heart rate back in gives a figure of 127 if we used the 220 less your age (I was 48) gives me a max of 172 x 55% = 95 bpm which would mean I could not even walk at that %
     
    adpowah likes this.
  20. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    LISS is arguably the most efficient way to increase work capacity.

    And if you're over 35 and believe that the only benefits will be muscular, on your own head be it.
     

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