So the volume question

S

Sun-Tzu

New Member
So how much is an optimal amount for muscle growth? With the idea to change to doing a few compound movements per routine the volume has become an issue for me.

Normally I would hit each major muscle group with 2-4 sets each (30-60 reps) ie Legs, 15 reps of squat, 15 reps of deadlift, 15 reps of standing calf raises.

I should just stop worrying about this and do it, but for some reason I'm being stubborn.
 
Depends on the group. I like 4 sets for back and 4 for legs, 2 or 3 for chest, then 1 for shoulders.
 
No one knows the answer for everyone. It depends on chronological age, training age, testosterone levels, type of training done before, diet, cortisol levels, thyroid function, stress, the amount of sleep you get, etc. etc.

The best thing you can do is experiment. Change up every three months or so and see what works for you at that point in time. Ans it WILL change as you age. If something works, stick with it until you feel stagnated. Then try something else. It will be totally different for a beginner than an intermediate or advanced lifter or someone with super genes or someone who uses "extra" gene help.

Health, and bodybuilding can be, and should be, a life long learning exercise. Just don't get caught in a rut. I did for about 20 years until I found HST and Bryan's application of science to practice, then I started to grow again. And I am still growing at age 61. Keep at it my friend.
 
Thanks for the posts guys. I highly respect everyone's opinion here.

After taking into consideration your routine suggestions O&G on lowering volume I have chosen to go with this routine and will be starting it in about 15 minutes (always down to the wire).

1 week of 1x15 or "burns like hell" (as Choco recommended, no need to do 2 weeks)
2 weeks of 2x10
2 weeks of 3x5
2 weeks of 2x5 with dropset

A/B Split 3 times a week

In this order:
Leg Curl (A)
Lunge (B)
Squat (A)
Deadlift (B)
Bench Press (A)
Dip (B)
Chin/pullups
Bent Over Row
Shoulder Press
Incline BB Curl
Tricep Pushdown
Standing Cal Raise

So I went from originally doing 13 exercises to 9

On off days I will jog for 20 minutes or so (standard running as well as some HIIT sprinting from time to time) and do additional core work and correction work for posture which includes some weighted situps, leg lifts, and side bends along with stretching.

I'll still be cutting during this time. My goal is 8 lbs in one month with it mainly being fat. I lost 15 lbs in the last 2 months, but it seems to be equal fat and muscle I just gained in the previous 2 months before that. I wasn't doing cardio, but just lifting weights and lowering carbs and it didn't seem to help cut the fat while keeping on the muscle, so I'm experimenting to see if the additional cardio will help.

Thank you again.

Oh I almost forgot to ask. Which is better for tricep work, french press or tricep pushdown? I feel like you lose some tension with the french press when you arms are close to straight. Also when you are doing dips and chins about how much b/w are you actually lifting? 100%? I was thinking it might be a little less sense your arms are really being lifted as well. I'm trying to match up lat pull down to pull ups. I notice that after about 140lbs I have to switch to pull ups and it actually seems easier than doing the lat pulldown at 140lbs. (I'm 170 right now btw)
 
My 3rd cycle to my 5th cycle (cutting)

Mar. 21st - June 20th
arms 13 - 13.25 (+.25")
chest 42.25 - 42.5 (+.25")
forearm 12 - 12 (0")
calve 15 - 14.75 (-.25")
thigh 23.25 - 22 (-1.25") I'm assuming my leg loss is because I sit at a desk all day.
waist 36 - 36 (0") Why no change? Bad genes?
shoulders 47"

Body Weight: 180lbs Now: 170lbs (where did the 10lbs go is what I'm wondering. I lowered calories, so I figured the gut would shrink a little, but apparently not)
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh I almost forgot to ask. Which is better for tricep work, french press or tricep pushdown?</div>
If you are doing heavy dips, which are fantastic for triceps development, then adding in a stretch-point movement would be your best bet. So that would mean some kind of overhead extension or skull crushers rather than a push down. My favorite right now is standing overhead extensions with an EZ-curl bar.
 
The one comment I haven't seen echoes yet is...You should be using the most volume you can handle without hampering your ability to train frequently engouh. As O&amp;G points out, this will take some experimentation and is dependant on many things.

As an aside comment to Sun-Tzu from another board, I would like to see how Max-Stim works on untrained lifters as well
wink.gif
 
To take the opposite argument from Dan, the ideal amount of volume is the lowest amount that allows you to grow. The best we can hope for is to find a happy medium between the least amount of volume necessary and the most volume that your body can absorb and still grow.

I came across a study once that said that 2 sets were 50% more effecive than one set and that 3 sets were 50% more effective than the second set but only 25% more effective than the first set, etc. etc.

I have also come across studies that said that your last rep in any given set was as beneficial as all the other reps combined.

Clustering is probably as good a method of trying to find a happy medium as any other method. Most people cluster in the 15 to 30 rep range. I typically stick with 15 but do about double that for legs as mine respond much better to rep ranges in the 10 to 25 range.

So Sun, your mission in life is to find the ultimate fool proof way to solve this age old riddle. Upon success, you shall be promotted to the rank of Grasshopper!
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Dan,
I'm definitely doing a round of Max-stim. I would have done it this cycle but want to do it on a bulk to see more true results for a beginner. It wouldn't work (as well) on a cut I believe. Im meticulous when it comes to records, so I'll be sure to post my results on your forum with photos.

O&amp;G,
There's usually always an average for everything, so I figured there might be one for optimal volume. It looks like there are conflicting reports on what is optimal volume, like you said, so I'll just have to find out myself.

The thing is feel is a really bad way of determining how much volume or how good your workout was. I did that workout yesterday and was getting nausish/weak around the 8th exercise (A sign to slow down, basically). Now 2 months ago I did that routine near exact plus 4 more exercises and 2 sets of 15 reps instead of one. I felt nausish about half way through also. However after about 3 sessions I was able to handle the volume fine as my body had adapted to lifting weights again after the SD. I'm sure the same thing will happen here. So basically it's hard to determine the exact volume as some days you're body could handle more based upon your previous experience. This could lead people to believe that less volume is optimal when in fact it isn't. You can't just feel to know if the volume is enough. I really think you need to push the limit for at least a week before you'll really know if it's too much or not. I've seen guys train for 3 hours a day, 6 days a week, not on roids, and have no CNS problems. I'm talking 75 sets per body part. I don't think we'll ever really know if more or less volume is better as there are so many variables. My thinking is do as much as you can right before failure, but from things I've heard and read here as well as on Dan's site it looks like science is once again disproving common sense. This is what I'm here to learn. What is the most effective way to make muscles grow and become stronger?

I usually know if I'm doing too much if I can't wake up in the morning, my strength decreases more than 10lbs in a lift, or I'm extremely tired all day for several days.

I've also noticed nutrition timing and what you eat has had a profound effect on the amount of volume I can do. I did an experiment with drinking just a carb/protein shake before a workout, one just after, one before and after, and one before during and after. The one 30 minutes before, during, and after allowed me to do most volume. The one just after the least. I also had a meal of protein/fat little carb 2.5 hours before the workout. I was told this is what was really powering my workouts as technically the shakes aren't absorbed into the body for at least 2 hours, but I clearly saw an increase in stamina by drinking the shakes before and during so something must of been getting absorbed and used.
 
I would drop the leg curls, lunge and calf raises. Makes no sense when squatting and deadlifting.

Are you doing full ROM on your squats?
 
<div>
(Old and Grey @ Jun. 21 2006,16:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have also come across studies that said that your last rep in any given set was as beneficial as all the other reps combined.</div>
Hey O&amp;G that sounds like Darden's training to failure speak?
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I used to believe that but now I don't. What's so special about the last rep? If we are not training to failure then is our whole set now only 50% as effective? I don't think so. I think Dan's Max-stim, method where fatigue is kept at bay as long as possible, shows that it's lifting the load more times that elicits the greatest benefit.

Certainly the last rep to failure causes a lot more fatigue and CNS drain which will impact on the volume you can handle on a regular basis.
 
liege,
I'm altenating squat and deads, on one day Ill do leg curl, squat. the next workout lunge, deadlift. I figure it's less taxing then doing squat, deadlift on the same workout everytime.
 
I knew you were alternating the squats and deads.

I don't think one needs to do leg curls, lunges and calf raises when doing squats and deads. Seems like wasted energy. It's the same as doing preacher curls after a few sets of weighted chins.
 
I totally agree with Lol about the last rep of a set. It's not exhaustion of the muscle that matters, but mechanical load. It has already been pointed out that this is the whole point of Dan's Max-stim method; do more reps without draining your CNS.

Anyway, maybe those studies O&amp;G is referring to were looking at strength gains. The very last rep of a set to failure is much more taxing on the CNS than the first one, so you 're basically training your CNS when doing this. Combine this with a low rep count and you'll see that it is aimed at strength and not hypertrophy. Just my thoughts...
 
Liege,
I think you are missing something. Normally I would do Squats and Deads every workout, but instead im doing leg curls in place of deadlifts on one day and lunges in place of squats on another. It's not like doing weighted chins and then curls, because I'm not doing them on the same day. I feel it is less taxing to do leg curls and lunges instead of doing squats and deads in the same day. I'm basically targeting the muscle a little more without activiting a large group of muscles, instead of doing nothing at all for that day. That too me isn't a waste of energy, but a conservation of it, because I would be doing squats and deadlifts in the same day if not. I do agree though that if I was doing squats, leg curls, lunges, and deadlifts, the leg curls and lunges would be a waste. I don't agree with the calves however. There is not enough direct stimulus by squats alone IMO. The calves are tough muscles and take a lot to get them to grow.
 
Day two:

Man I'm feeling like a million bucks right now. As suspected my body has adapted and I was able to hit perfect form on every lift and completed everything feeling like I could have done at least 2 more exercises. Moving the core work w/cardio to off days seems to be working a lot better. I hope I feel like this for the rest of the cycle, if so I think I'll be making some good progress, heh maybe even some muscle gain w/fat loss on a calorie deficit ;)

On another positive side note I was given a job offer today paying 1/4 more than I'm making now.

&quot;Life is Good&quot;
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Sun, I understand what you're talking about, you missed my point again.

I don't think leg curls, calf raises or lunges are necessary when doing full ROM squats and deadlifts (I know you alternate. The squats and deadlifts done properly will hit what is targeted with the other 3 exercises and with a greater load, with the possible exception of the calf raises.
 
Lol, I didn't mean to imply that I believe in that study. It's just that you can find a study to support whatever it is you want to support. It's like doctor shopping.

Liegelord makes good points. What in life do you do that you ever use a leg curl motion? A SLDL will give better results if you want to improve muscular functionality.

For quads, I typically alternate squats with deadlifts and the leg press. If I wanted to really pack mass on to my thighs, I would stick with squats and deadlifts.
 
I would much rather do another set of squats or deads instead of doing leg curls or lunges. Squats and Deads hit all the muscles that lunges and leg curls do, but they hit them with higher loads, so they are more productive in the long run. If you really think you need extra work for hams, you could do SLDL or good mornings.
I will concede that maybe the calf raises are necessary... some guys need them to get good calf development, some don't. But I would really consider replacing the lunges and leg curls with additional sets of squats or deads.
 
<div>
(liegelord @ Jun. 23 2006,01:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sun, I understand what you're talking about, you missed my point again.

I don't think leg curls, calf raises or lunges are necessary when doing full ROM squats and deadlifts (I know you alternate.  The squats and deadlifts done properly will hit what is targeted with the other 3 exercises and with a greater load, with the possible exception of the calf raises.

i</div>
i disagree,although i think squats and deads are essential 1-2 sets of each isnt going to allow full isolation and more importantly full developement of the calve muscles,no-where near.too many people are taking to heart that compounds are the only way,yes they are in some respects,and are by far the best mass builder but some muscles require special attention to develope fully.
 
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