This coming HST cycle I need some help

J

Joe.Muscle

Active Member
Ok guys I need some advice.

I have been following a Standard HST routine for years now and made gains every year.

Last year I tried to stay to lean...which I accomplished but I got ripped at the expense of losing too much muscle. Basically i cut way to much weight. I got down to 174 to 176 at 6 feet tall. Now a year later I am weighing around 195. My shirts are filled out better and I like this look as well.

Well some of you may know my story but for the ones who don't here is a quick cliff not..(Not the long version)

My arms are my best bodypart but they didn't use to be...my chest use to be extremely dominant before my pec tear injury. I went from benching a whole lot to back at scratch with 20 pound dumbells.

Anyway the past 2 years I have been concentrating on getting the beach muscle back up to par!

The good news is its gotten better b/c of HST but no were like the rest of my body parts have responded.

I always keep it simple...nothing but benchpress with dumbells....hammer strength wide press...incline press and dips ( occasionally b/c they hurt the injured pec)

My first year of HST I used a volume of 40 reps...( very high by the boards standards) and even Bryan said it could be just what I needed or not?

Through conversations I realized the 40 reps was holding my strenght back some so I dropped to 20 and 30 reps!

I could lift way heavier with 20 reps but I didn't feel like it was enough volume for this 13 year veteran of iron...so 30 reps has been my REPS to stick with.

I have been concentration on increasing weights b/c it seems heavier weight more often is the way to go for MAXIMUM MU recruitment but I will not under any circumstances go below my 5 rep max.

Anyway after a long fishing trip with the guys this weak they admired my physique but thought the chest was lagging ( I think so too).

I am stuck at not knowing what to do?

Its not from diet...b/c all the other bodyparts are responding.

I am getting stronger thanks to the forum recommding 20 to 30 reps over 40 reps.

I am sticking do compounds....no flys hardly ever ( I am not sure if this is a good thing)

What is one to do?
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I will end this lengthy post with my stats and routine that gave me the best chest growth ever .....pre injury.

It looked like this

Dumbell press 6 sets of 12,10,8,6, 12,12 reps
Follow by flys for the same as above.

I did that once per week?

Thoughts suggestions are welcomed!

Thanks...and sorry for the lenght!
 
I have a nondominant chest myself; HST helped that a little, but I think the dips, very wide, are the thing along with the oft-recommended incline presses (which I used db's for). My upper pecs started showing growth at the soft and almost gynomastic effect of the lower pecs from not doing anything flat and less dips. For some weird reason, flyes never seemed to work for me.
I'm now doing flat bench followed by wide dips every other workout for chest. Reps are instinctive due to my 70+ hour workweeks as of late.
When I was in the World Gym in florida two summers ago, I came up with a db press in the crossover machine...using the ankle cuffs on my wrists, and about 30-35 lbs. on each stack, I'd press while the cables were pulling my arms outward. Man, was that ever a burn on the pecs! Didn't do them long enough to see results though, since we shut down the operation and came home.
 
If your chest used to be dominant then the only real issue here is how comfortable you feel training it hard and heavy again. If your injury still precludes you from training the way you used to (ie. you can't use the loads, volume or range of motion you once did) then I don't see how you can really get back to your former size and strength. I'd love it if you could prove me wrong but that's how I see it.

Of course, chemical assistance would surely help because you could handle more volume. In fact, more volume with a load that you are happy to lift with is probably the only way forward. Just for chest mind you. At least that way you will be increasing the level of work done.
 
Joe

My only motivation is that by doing Dips & Flyes, specially the light on a pulse type of repetition as recommended by Vicious in his pim book, my chest seems to have responded, at least that is what tehguys said from my pics recently posted.

I'd suggest a mix of Heavy Dips + 15 degree Incline bench + Pulsed flyes with a final loaded stretch.
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I agree with the above , the perfect routine may be a carefull mix of load , frequency, volume , intensity ect.ect. - but imho load is king, a person could lift 200 lbs. in thier flat bench in every concievable set/rep configuration , but the guy doing a 300 lb. bench even in a less perfect routine will look different(all things being equal).
About the only thing I would suggest if load has to be markedly submaximal would be to make every bench day "speed day" ALA louie simmons style , forget slow and controlled ( well not the controlled part , but you know what I mean, and make every lift with as much force as you can generate, this would help slightly if you hadn't already been lifting this way. And would allow load to be kept at a level that didn't breed concern about re-injury.
I would highly recommend BB bench done with powerlifter form as the stability over DB's allows higher load and less stabilizing stress. The elbows tucked until the part where tri's have taken over (then they breifly flare out) is a zillion times safer than the typical body building form (elbows flared) and gives a pronounced mechanical advantage - which results in higher loads and = enhanced gains. The chest is stimulated just as much but the "stretch" (pec and delt tie in ripper) is taken out of the equation.


Of course I know you are no noob and nothing I'm saying is probably news to you, so I hope you aren't offended by my stating what in all likelyhood is the obvious to you...
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No...I like all of these suggestions.

I am considering a little higher volume for chest only and then dropping the the volume as loads get heavy. I am thinking Reps may not be kept constant for chest.

So what I am considering trying is starting with about 75% of my 15 rep max.

For chest my target reps will be between 30 and 50 reps per workout 3 times a week.

I will reduce my reps on legs from 30 to 20...I will reduce reps from shoulders from 30 to 20 and I will drop arms down to 1 set a piece. This frees up about 40 reps.

I will divide the 40 reps between chest and back... I don't want to push more than I pull and vice versa b/c of injury prevention.

So what this will look like his chest and back will get hit with around 150 reps a week on 3 days of training and everything else will be hit not as much volume.

So for example.

Chest will be 3 sets of 15's
4 sets 12 reps
4 sets 10 reps
4 sets of 8 reps
5 sets of 6 reps

So I will be all over the map with reps and they will not be constant for chest or back.

My thinking is that I DO NOT nead to do more volume if it keeps me from increasing load.

However I am in really good shape and I can do a lot reps at sub maximal weights.

I am still up for suggestions!!!
 
Forget all this pseudo crap about light loading and stretch position flyes etc: - you need to feel some real pain, man pain, pain in the form of deep tissue release (administered by a competant/qualified practioner)

You need to get the scar tissue and adhesions broken down, then psychologically release your minds grip on the fear that you will tear the muscle again.

Juice - you don't need! This could give a false impression everything is well, right up to the ping! (Reduced flow around any prevailing scar tissue will impede the uptake of nutrients - resulting in a weakening of the muscle, relative to the "growing" muscle around it)

Bite the bullet, spend the coin & get sorted.
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Very interesting DM. If it is in fact possible to reduce the amount of scar tissue and any adhesions then that sounds like a really good place to start.
 
<div>
(the_dark_master @ Apr. 29 2007,20:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Forget all this pseudo crap about light loading and stretch position flyes etc: - you need to feel some real pain, man pain, pain in the form of deep tissue release (administered by a competant/qualified practioner)

You need to get the scar tissue and adhesions broken down, then psychologically release your minds grip on the fear that you will tear the muscle again.

Juice - you don't need! This could give a false impression everything is well, right up to the ping! (Reduced flow around any prevailing scar tissue will impede the uptake of nutrients - resulting in a weakening of the muscle, relative to the &quot;growing&quot; muscle around it)

Bite the bullet, spend the coin &amp; get sorted.
smile.gif
</div>
Dark master,

Good point...and I have been doing this for the past 6 months.

It has helped a bunch!

The pec area is no were as tight...so I will continue to do this.

I still think the chest needs specialization.

Now remember its not like I am not growing off HST I am everywhere...the problem is my body is out growing my chest....my chest is still growing just not at the rate of the rest of the body.

This is not me being impatient...I actually addressed this issue 2 years ago with the forum...and though the chest has gotten better its still lagging.

So this only leads me to two options in my head.

More volume and load for chest.

Less volume and load for the rest of the body?

Thanks guys for the feedback...keep it coming!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Less volume and load for the rest of the body?</div>

For most people, I wouldn't advise this - see Fausto's simplify and win thread. However, you have very high volume in most of your cycles, so I suggest lowering that a bit. Make sure the eccentric reps are slow. Try static holds and pulses, and do your metabolic sets in the 5's. Every once in a while, HST veterans need to go back to the basics for success.
 
If you increase chest volume, then I think you should reduce volume elsewhere. If your training is currently optimal, then if you add something in then something should go out.
 
I know most of the guys around here like sticking to the basics, me included, but if you have been constantly training and still seeing lagging results of your chest, you've got to give it some special attention outside of the compounds. It's not like we're talking about your forearms here, I mean a solid chest to go with everything else that you say has been increasing in size is really important if you are going for a great, overall look.

I'm new to HST, but I would think maybe throwing in a set or two of flies at the end of your chest compound wouldn't be a bad idea... something that is chest specific. One exercise I really liked doing was a mixture between a DB press and fly.. I pressed up normally, and lowered in a fly movement on the eccentric portion. It seemed to really hit a big area of my chest.
 
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(colby2152 @ Apr. 30 2007,04:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Less volume and load for the rest of the body?</div>

For most people, I wouldn't advise this - see Fausto's simplify and win thread.  However, you have very high volume in most of your cycles, so I suggest lowering that a bit.  Make sure the eccentric reps are slow.  Try static holds and pulses, and do your metabolic sets in the 5's.  Every once in a while, HST veterans need to go back to the basics for success.</div>
Colby I have been training with 30 reps for the past year.

You are thinking in terms of say 2 years ago...during my high volume days.

My last HST mini cycle was just 20 reps?

Thanks for the input...do you still agree with less.

Keep the replies coming guys!

Plus if I I do 40 reps for chest and back and 25 for legs and shoulders thats only 130 reps a workout.

Not that much out from the norm?....or is it?
 
This was Bryans response to me about 1 1/2 years ago around his HST routine. I had asked him about volume and being a veteran of the IRON game like myself if it takes more?

Reading his remarks may help with advice on my routine?

Like most people who aren't getting ready for a show or something, my volume goes up or down depending on my work schedule. Right at the moment I'm working too much and so my training has suffered.

I would say right now I'll do 1 exercise per bodypart using 2-3 sets (more if I have time). I also alternate between different exercises each time I workout. So one workout I'll do Incline press for chest and the next workout I'll do Dips. Same goes for Back and legs.

If I'm pressed for time, rather than reduce the number of sets I do, I'll reduce the number of exercises. So, for example, rather than doing only one set for each bodypart, I'll drop arms in favor of more sets for chest and back.

On a side note, for me I don't really start growing until I get to the 10s and 5s. I don't skip the 15s however because my 5s are a bit heavy for my old bones and I need the rehab during the 15s so I can keep at it year after year.

You can be confident that I train by the exact same principles as everybody else doing HST.

Bryan
 
Its usually accepted, that once you get the basics down with compounds, its not frowned upon to do isolation movements.

Try a different exercise, for me bar/dumbell bench or flies does little for my chest development, seems machine flies really force my entire chest to work.   Not currently having access to machines, I guess I have to cope.
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As with anything, your gonna have to put the time and energy in, with different exercises to see what works for you.

I think your fixated with total reps.  
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Need to eat...I am not so much hung up on reps ( I use to be
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I actually prefer and like the 30 reps better!

Hell I enjoyed 20 reps...I am not looking forward to doing more reps by no means.

But I have increased the weights more than ever this year!

I have gone from 174 ish to 195...(calorie surplus) and gained muscle everywhere.

So does my pec area look better...yes....but given everything is equal....at the rate I have been growing for the past 2 years everything is growing at around the same rate.

So common sense tells me that if 2 years ago the pecs were lagging and everything grew the past 2 years equally then they are still lagging and that is were I am at today.

I guess I could reduce volume to 1 sets for everything except chest and keep it at 20 or 30 reps...but to be honest that way too easy of a workout for me.

Dont get me wrong when i get toward my 5 rep max it get winded and tired like everyhone...but generally speaking I feel great and can do more during my entire cycle except for the heavy 5's.

That is were this discussion of mine has come from....I personally dont want to do 40 reps at all...I did that 2 years ago and saw no difference than from 30 reps...if there was a difference it wasn't much.

I will not go past my 5 rep max...simply b/c if you read thousand of pec tear articles like i have and see the results the injuries happen normally with more than your 5 rep max.

So if you take going heavy out of the equation...that only leaves you with more or less volume?
 
Never mind this whole f-ing thread.

I have made up my mind and Im sticking to 30 reps. IM 2 weeks into a SD right now I am going to SD even longer to 3 weeks and start at a rediculous low weight and make sure I am increasing weights EVERY workout and not repeating any like I have been in the past!

30 reps fullbody 3 times a week.

Joe.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ May 01 2007,16:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Never mind this whole f-ing thread.

I have made up my mind and Im sticking to 30 reps. IM 2 weeks into a SD right now I am going to SD even longer to 3 weeks and start at a rediculous low weight and make sure I am increasing weights EVERY workout and not repeating any like I have been in the past!

30 reps fullbody 3 times a week.

Joe.</div>
Good idea...it is what I do.
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Joe, if that doesn't work this time, just think simple and accept that there has to be a change made: could be volume, or exersize choices or addition of some shock routines, but sometimes that idea can backfire if you overdo it.
Were it me, and wanting to stay with the 30 rep scheme, I'd look at what didn't work and change the way I did it.
Say you were only doing bench and incline db's. You could change to crossover flyes and dips.
Say you were alternating two chest exersizes. You could change one, both, or DO both, adding volume.
3 exersizes? Change to two. Whatever. Just don't do what stopped working before.
 
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Quad you are right.

Sometimes we all look for the quick fix and through reading tons of my notes on hypertrophy and some other sites over the past 2 days I realized I am right on with the setup...I just haven't found the right mix for the pecs yet?

Maybe I should push through the awkward feeling of dips?

Maybe I should do Flys HST style adding weight?

Not really sure but I will not be using the same exercise for chest this cycle.

Thanks guys!

Lastly...I am not pumped up about cutting to much this year...normally I am when summer comes around...so more than anything I am looking after cycle to really go crazy on the calories and do one nasty bulk!
 
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