this routine kicks major A$$

Another point that might need to be considered is the load increase. If I remember correctly, it wasn't only the increase of the load but how much the load increased that spurred growth. The smaller the increase the more it helped your strength versus growth. The larger the increase the more it spurred growth. So making smaller increases to drag out each block might not be optimal for growth?

I also probably over simplified my "injury" comment. Guess I was assuming I would coming off my SD and starting in on my 5 rep max. I would be hurt for sure. I am getting old and always tweaking something, lol. But I would think one could come off the SD, zig zag a tad back into the previous previous rep range and then work up.

I utilize A and B workouts so I am only hitting each exercise three times from the start of a block to my max. For example, my bench press 5's will be in three increments. 225, 265 or so and then finish at about 300 for 5 reps.

That's probably zig zagged a tad for the 225 for 5 reps. Might be finishing my 10's at 225-245 but I am not sure right this second since I don't have my log in front of me. Me personally, I don't think I could take a week or two off and hit 275 within two workouts followed by working with 300 on my third workout. I would have to zig zag back into the weights used in the 10's and slowly go up from there. Maybe I could though.

I think I am just rambling now, lol.

Keystone
 
Try it and let us know how it goes. Seems like it could work. I personally wouldn't want to SD that frequently, but theoretically I don't see why it wouldn't work.
 
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(Keystone @ Mar. 09 2007,12:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Another point that might need to be considered is the load increase.  If I remember correctly, it wasn't only the increase of the load but how much the load increased that spurred growth.  The smaller the increase the more it helped your strength versus growth. The larger the increase the more it spurred growth.  So making smaller increases to drag out each block might not be optimal for growth?</div>
I have searched in vane for years now to substantiate this and have never found it.

Hostler did a study on .5lb increcrements on strength versus traditional progression (dual progression), but not hypertrophy. Anderson used a periodized system of increasing loads but didn't compare to varying increments or conventional progression. The early work of Gonyea used progressive overload by increasing the load 10% of starting load but didn't compare it to other forms of progression. Farrell, the same thing so none of them used a design to look at varying increment increases.

So it would be nice to see a study done on optimal incrementation.
 
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(Lol @ Mar. 09 2007,12:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">need2eat, I've probably missed something you've said already (sorry) but what's the big deal about reaching your true RMs for each mesocycle before the last part of a cycle?  
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With my concept of doing 2-4 week mini cycles, then SD.  The importance of reaching your true RM would in my mind, be the fact your taking full advantage of your current rep/set scheme, aka 15's/10's/5's.   I think this is  where quadancer became puzzled, I can see his point now,
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,  To me, failure means, perform a lift until you can no longer, remove weight, repeat until you physically burn out.  With my suggestion, you reach one point of failure, on only one workout.  HST suggests you increment up to your RM so seems its acceptable.

HST suggests you test your self before each cycle, your supposed to hit your RM each mesocycle. But from my experience using calculators and guessing, that doesnt happen, and Id imagine thats not uncommon.

With HST most feel the first two mesocycles are merely warm ups for the 5's, I cant say I totally disagree.  With this approach, each mesocycle becomes a mini cycle and stands on its own.

I look at it as giving each mesocycle every opportunity to stimulate the muscle.




Keystone

I think Dan Moore addressed your primary question the best.  I hadnt seen any reference to how increments should be broken down and why, so saw no harm in this idea.






My last SD I toyed around with the super slow sets, that I had mentioned in another thread.  I handled 25% of my 5 RM weight, doing 10 counts up, 10 counts down to complete one rep, I performed 10 reps in most cases for three sets.  I have to say, when I started my new HST cycle, I blew threw the 10's like a freight train this time and totally skipped the 15's.  It should be made clear, I performed the super slow routine for muscle repair not strength or hypertrophy.  I had a spot right as my chest meets the shoulder, it was sore for a couple months, if I performed a movement that incorporated that muscle, the weight fell.  After doing the super slow routine, in place of my normal 2 week SD, the problem went away, I was suprised to say the least.

I am considering instead of doing two week SD, doing two seek super slow routine as Ive described between the mesocycles or my self described mini cycles..haha.  From what Ive read, if you use super light weights, there is no harm in performing exercises during the SD, there was some debate but 25% of your RM is pretty dang light.  Im still not sure about that aspect though, I may just SD.


I have three more workouts to complete my 5's on this HST cycle, then however many 5's workouts I can squeeze in before my body say no more.  I have to say though, Im feeling good and I believe its the Super slow routine I performed, maybe the super slow routine only benefited my strength and hasnt helped hypertrophy??  Cant say I much care either way, if I can move more weight, Im happy just the same.  
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Thoughts?
 
Only a noob or someone who takes long breaks from working out would benefit from dragging out a mesocycle past two weeks strictly for the purpose of finding his &quot;true rm.&quot;  After you have been working out for awhile you are able to estimate your strength levels with pretty good accuracy (ESPECIALLY if you have been keeping logs of your workouts).  Sure, it's not going to be pinpoint accuracy, but close enough so that an extra workout would be pointless.  Maybe I'm assuming too much, but most experienced lifters should be able to tell that they're stronger in mid-cycle and adjust the weights as needed so they won't be far off their maxes at the end of their cycle.
 
My question to you, why would you adjust your mesocycle mid stream?

The whole purpose is to use submax weight.  Your assuming you need to reach your RM in two weeks, for some reason.  What if by adjusting mid mesocycle, by taking a big leap forward, you sell yourself short, as you could have continued your increment pattern, and stimulated the muscle longer, using submax weight?  

Another reason why IMO, its a bad idea to change your poundage mid mesocycle, just because you think you know, is no indication you do.  You could adjust your weight, then fall into the groove of, paper says Xlbs, I did X lbs, well I must be ready for the next mesocycle? and move forward content, when you might be selling yourself short, weight training is a mental game at time.

I think your also really missing the concept, each mesocycle would become a cycle.

Arguably, someone with experience could benefit from more rest.
 
I can see your concept, but it seems unnecessary for the guys Steve is talking about. I KNOW about what I can lift, expect to surpass that, and automatically adjust a little (little.) to hit a true RM.
I think what Steve is expecting of a lifter is that we have our max pretty much figured and the increments take us to that point in two weeks. But yes, you could stretch out longer without harm.
If increments are too small, you know you're going to adapt to the load and not break down anything, if too large you'll hit the wall too soon. From that, I'll suppose that the two week period is a fitzall.
 
Well for the sake of arguement, lets say some can nail their RM before they lift a weight, two weeks out.


These people, with my concept, would treat each mesocycle as its own entity, just like the guy that cannot, it really makes no difference, it would simply take the beginner longer to get to the RM, might not be such a bad thing.

When you go from 15s to 10s, 10s to 5s, your using the whole routine as a whole, your not really giving the body time to recover from a given stimulus.  I know HST says, your body can grow, despite a new load being put on it, what it doesnt specify, is whether it would fully develop  from the stimulus.  Mayb dan moore can jump in on that one, as I have no idea.  , as opposed to letting it grow from the 15s solely.  Guess Im wondering if the body might respond more efficiently,  treating each mesocycle as its own entity, as rest/SD cant hurt anyone, might unnerve those that cant help but workout.
 
The only thing is that I don't think SD should be performed that often unless you are feeling an impending injury or your progress has stalled. Otherwise you are just slowing your progress for no real reason.
 
But there is the, what if the additional SD increased growth.

You make a good point, someone relatively new at lifting it might not be that beneficial, the SD part anyway, the other things Ive suggested might be right on target, as in the beginning we're prime for anything, for me though, Its the unknown that intrigues me.
 
I don't really see how the additional SD is going to increase growth. It's a period of no growth. For someone who has been lifting a while, an SD between rep ranges isn't going to eliminate much of the conditioning effect anyway. It takes months off from lifting for that to happen.

Frequent SDs are actually more beneficial to newbies in my opinion, and less so to those of us who have been in the game longer. When you've been lifting longer, it takes more to illicit progress, and so more frequent SDs would be setting you back moreso. Whereas a newbie will probably not lose much during SD and could use them in order to prevent injury and remain fresh when they begin lifting again.
For me, doing an SD means losing a little bit of strength, maybe even getting a little soft if I don't count calories during SD. But if you are feeling worn down after the 15s or the 10s, then by all means take a short break. It's just not going to do much.


Anyway, when it comes to drawing out each rep range, I already do this and advocate doing this with the 5s. The way I accomplish that is to increase the load only once per week, which draws out the 5s for a minimum of at least six weeks (six increments, one increment per week, six weeks) and then add on to that whatever strength increases you've experienced, that should take the 5s out for a while.
I suppose you could do the same with the 10s. I don't see much point in doing the 15s for that long though, since the growth stimulus would probably be minimal. Still, dragging out the 10s longer would be easy enough. Not sure if six weeks would be good though, maybe three or four. That could work. I just wouldn't do the SD between rep ranges part. But do two weeks of 15s, three/four weeks of 10s and six to eight weeks of 5s, that should probably be a productive cycle if you ate enough throughout.
 
I once read something somewhere, cant seem to put my finger on it, but it suggested that growth does occur during a rest period after you stop training, cant seem to think of it.


First you say SD takes months, then you say HST SD (two weeks?) leaves you weaker and your an experienced lifter..whats it gonna be? Im just having fun with the contradiction, its late.
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Dont waste your time explaining, I know what you mean.


You make reasonable points, but there is still some speculation.


Still not sure what I wanna do. Your mention of how you do your 5's, Ive read that before, its interesting, thought about trying that......just not sure at the moment.
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Good points Tot, and I'd add that thread we had around 4-6 months ago about which mesocycle caused people the most growth...and the 15's had the least of the three.
For me, most growth is in the fives, so 15's and 10's are just getting me ready.
 
No offense, but pointless question.
There is also a latent bout effect (for lack of a better definition; it's late here too) where your gains in a mesocycle could be from the work done in the mesocycle prior to it. Doing cycles of only one rep range would be the only way to find out, and I'll bet the results would be different for each lifter.
Right now my bod has responded to lowrep, strength training. It won't forever, and I'll change up until the new gets old. And so forth.
 
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(need2eat @ Mar. 09 2007,21:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What if, you only did 15s and grew?

What if, you only did 10's and grew?

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And it's happened

Wasn't it Serge who used 20 rep sets in all his workouts?

It's not the rep range or the progression mode that's important it's what happens from the start of the cycle to the end of the cycle. So in Need's thoughts here doing a 4 week cycle of 15's, then switching to 10's then to 5's is no different than most other periodized systems and really no different than HST itself.

As long as each cycle adhere's to progressive overload, why wouldn't it work?

I do agree with Biz that if trying to do this in a HST progressive manner the loads at the intitial starting weight would be way too low. But this isn't saying that if he were to repeat each load it wouldn't work if he started out truly deconditioned, something I believe he already mentioned. He could also use the first two weeks in a typical HST fashion, then use the next two in a dual progressive manner to increase his RM in that cycle. With just 3 RM ranges this would still only be a 12 week cycle overall.

I also agree with Tot, I don't see where SD is needed in between each RM phase as the progression from one cycle to the next is accomplishing progressive overload.
 
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(quadancer @ Mar. 09 2007,21:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No offense, but pointless question.
There is also a latent bout effect (for lack of a better definition; it's late here too) where your gains in a mesocycle could be from the work done in the mesocycle prior to it. Doing cycles of only one rep range would be the only way to find out, and I'll bet the results would be different for each lifter.
Right now my bod has responded to lowrep, strength training. It won't forever, and I'll change up until the new gets old. And so forth.</div>
It wasnt a pointless question, or you wouldnt have responded to it, as I expected someone should.  
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Your making my point.  I dont think I could have better explained it myself, now if only you could see, how your last response and my concept compliment each other.



Besides, dan moore seems to think some of what im saying makes sense and most people respect his opinion, except steve jones, because dan moore is smaller than him...haha  
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I got a question for ya dan moore.

One instance you say X bodybuilder used higher reps to gain muscle.  Then you follow it with, the rep range is insignificant.  Could you go into some detail how rep range is unimportant?  As I feel, maybe ignorantly, that my body responds differently to certain rep ranges.  With HST im unable to tell so much,  but when I used to do higher rep routines, then say 5X5, I could. Maybe its all psychological, dunno.
 
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(need2eat @ Mar. 09 2007,10:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Question for you might be, what makes you think two weeks would be insufficient?  As neural learning shouldnt be a major concern, as you should have at least done one HST cycle before trying this.</div>
If you are asking me then I will repsond only by saying I have been around since HST first took off, so yes I have done numerous HST cycles. As for two weeks being insufficient, I don't recall ever saying anything of the sort. I was merely speaking of the basic HST program and why two week blocks were suggested, not ordered, by Bryan Haycock. If you can progressively load the muscle every workout and make it last three or more weeks for a given rep range, then you must have started at well below 75% of RM. I believe in training to sub-failure, but that would be an extreme. If the question was not directed at me, then I apologize and please ignore my post.
 
Yes and you answered, thanks.

Ive only done six cycles to your ? but I see no problem extending my two week block, using smaller increments, keeping a 70%/RM starting poundage. another alternative, using identical poundage over two consecutive workouts.

I've not read anything in the HST info, about optimal increments, so I see no harm in this.
 
Need2eat, if it isn't broke don't fix it. So if it works for you great. Heck, Bryan never said the basic routine is the only way to do HST, he just said it is a good place to start. I'd be lying if I said I didn't tweak a few things along the way.
 
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