Morgoth the Dark Enemy
New Member
In order for me not to make a mistake:are you being serious?If you`re joking and seek to maintain the joke, feel free to answer via PM and thus not ruin it, but if you`re serious about the above...
Thought you guys might find this interesting
- Thread starter Sun-Tzu
- Start date
ok lets face it i could get 20 or 30 studies on hypertrophy/strength etc and develope a system,
someone else could get 20 or 30 studies on hypertrophy/strength and develope another system the 2 of them coud be completely different but they both have studies to prove ther point.
you could also have two guys who do exactly the same workout day for day pound for pound but one has the genes for large legs the other for large arms.
eventualy they both become top bbrs one sells his routine as building the biggest arms the other sells his as building the biggest legs but the routines are exactly the same.
my point is there are a lot of factors to muscle growth there is no best routine.
but as far as HIT goes i have done that, nobody trains to complete faliure everyday in any sport,marathon runners have long days and short days,footballers dont give 100% everyday and before and after a game they have light sessions,so to train to complete faliure all the time IMO is just stupid.
someone else could get 20 or 30 studies on hypertrophy/strength and develope another system the 2 of them coud be completely different but they both have studies to prove ther point.
you could also have two guys who do exactly the same workout day for day pound for pound but one has the genes for large legs the other for large arms.
eventualy they both become top bbrs one sells his routine as building the biggest arms the other sells his as building the biggest legs but the routines are exactly the same.
my point is there are a lot of factors to muscle growth there is no best routine.
but as far as HIT goes i have done that, nobody trains to complete faliure everyday in any sport,marathon runners have long days and short days,footballers dont give 100% everyday and before and after a game they have light sessions,so to train to complete faliure all the time IMO is just stupid.
Morgoth the Dark Enemy
New Member
Best routine as in:I`ll write something that`ll fit absolutely everyone in order to get huge?Of course not, and you know as well as I do that I am not talking about that. The basic laws of building muscle are known, and even when going deeper and deeper(molecular level stuff), we don`t find anything but confirmation. The key has been here for ages:lift heavy crap, frequently(pre the 80s super Vitamin S usage induced retardedness of killing a bodypart and letting it recuperate forever, let`s say in the Reeves, Grimek etc. era, training 3x per weer/bp was common, as were full-body splits, and their Test usage was arguably low enough to not matter significantly), constantly trying to lift even heavier crap, and take periodic breaks from training in order for you not to turn into a goo-filled zombie.
Must a program stimulate psychical adherence?Of course, if you hate what you`re doing, unless you`re a very determined professional, you`re going to be very poor at it. That`s why most programs try to create something mythical around them(this is every bit as frequent with diets):the Germans used em, the Colorado experiment proves it, it`s based on Russian training secrets and whatnot-to stimulate that adherence and to give ppl the illusion that they`re into some really complicated, intricate, custom designed endeavour. Bryan does the same thing with HST:he sets it up as fool-proof as possible, because he knows that if he were to simply say the above, a billion ways of screwing even those simple concepts are within the reach of people. Because ppl tend to screw even the most simple thing up. If you say:use common sense, you must rest at some point, your body needs a break every now and then, they'll say-WTF, must train all time 2 b Hyooooge. So you create a pseudo-mystical Strategical Deconditioning period, and explain that employing it will make you even huger-voila, meatheads learn to take breaks.
That being said, studies won`t show a billion ways of building muscle, they`ll show only one. No matter how much one wants to believe that HIT in its purest(1 set to failure once per at least 5-7 days) incarnation(as per the hit-jedis) will make you huge, it won`t(again, disregard complete noobs, dudes trying to get some type of conditioning, but nothing out of the ordinary, and AAS users). AJ knew that, Mentzer knew that before losing his brain, Ken Leistner knows that, Darden seems to have found that out, Dorian knew it all along. What you`re left with is 160 lb guys with gyno like Drew Baye, or pricks making up physiology like Brian Johnston or Pete Sisqo(sp?) to support extreme HIT routines. Not really a great bunch...and I believe Baye has left the path. Basic human physiology is unique, it reacts similarly to similar stimuli, there aren`t a billion ways of inducing muscle growth. All the above IMHO, but I have a feeling that this post is not particularly in line with the new scope this board seems to be taking.
Must a program stimulate psychical adherence?Of course, if you hate what you`re doing, unless you`re a very determined professional, you`re going to be very poor at it. That`s why most programs try to create something mythical around them(this is every bit as frequent with diets):the Germans used em, the Colorado experiment proves it, it`s based on Russian training secrets and whatnot-to stimulate that adherence and to give ppl the illusion that they`re into some really complicated, intricate, custom designed endeavour. Bryan does the same thing with HST:he sets it up as fool-proof as possible, because he knows that if he were to simply say the above, a billion ways of screwing even those simple concepts are within the reach of people. Because ppl tend to screw even the most simple thing up. If you say:use common sense, you must rest at some point, your body needs a break every now and then, they'll say-WTF, must train all time 2 b Hyooooge. So you create a pseudo-mystical Strategical Deconditioning period, and explain that employing it will make you even huger-voila, meatheads learn to take breaks.
That being said, studies won`t show a billion ways of building muscle, they`ll show only one. No matter how much one wants to believe that HIT in its purest(1 set to failure once per at least 5-7 days) incarnation(as per the hit-jedis) will make you huge, it won`t(again, disregard complete noobs, dudes trying to get some type of conditioning, but nothing out of the ordinary, and AAS users). AJ knew that, Mentzer knew that before losing his brain, Ken Leistner knows that, Darden seems to have found that out, Dorian knew it all along. What you`re left with is 160 lb guys with gyno like Drew Baye, or pricks making up physiology like Brian Johnston or Pete Sisqo(sp?) to support extreme HIT routines. Not really a great bunch...and I believe Baye has left the path. Basic human physiology is unique, it reacts similarly to similar stimuli, there aren`t a billion ways of inducing muscle growth. All the above IMHO, but I have a feeling that this post is not particularly in line with the new scope this board seems to be taking.
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 25 2007,10:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Must a program stimulate psychical adherence?Of course, if you hate what you`re doing, unless you`re a very determined professional, you`re going to be very poor at it. That`s why most programs try to create something mythical around them.
...
Basic human physiology is unique, it reacts similarly to similar stimuli, there aren`t a billion ways of inducing muscle growth. All the above IMHO, but I have a feeling that this post is not particularly in line with the new scope this board seems to be taking.</div>
I agree with everything you say. My post was mainly a thought experiment concerning the logical extremes of the body-mind-philosophy behind methods like visualisation and mental training.
I'm not saying belief>science, but rather that myths facilitate a stronger connection to your training and that this kind of connection is the last bit needed to succeed. The "belief is all you need"-part was the extreme conclusion to this.
Maybe all I want to see is those myths getting some respect, giving them some scientific value not of physiological but of psychological nature, instead of scrapping them as a whole.
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 25 2007,10:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Must a program stimulate psychical adherence?Of course, if you hate what you`re doing, unless you`re a very determined professional, you`re going to be very poor at it. That`s why most programs try to create something mythical around them.
...
Basic human physiology is unique, it reacts similarly to similar stimuli, there aren`t a billion ways of inducing muscle growth. All the above IMHO, but I have a feeling that this post is not particularly in line with the new scope this board seems to be taking.</div>
I agree with everything you say. My post was mainly a thought experiment concerning the logical extremes of the body-mind-philosophy behind methods like visualisation and mental training.
I'm not saying belief>science, but rather that myths facilitate a stronger connection to your training and that this kind of connection is the last bit needed to succeed. The "belief is all you need"-part was the extreme conclusion to this.
Maybe all I want to see is those myths getting some respect, giving them some scientific value not of physiological but of psychological nature, instead of scrapping them as a whole.
Morgoth the Dark Enemy
New Member
Well, basically, it`s the same thing with dieting(and religion, but I don`t want to go there, nor will I ever on this board or any other for that matter). Tell a man/woman that in order to lean out he/she simply needs to eat less and move more...and watch them find a billion ways of rationalizing even the craziest stuff, eating their guts out whilst being convinced they eat less and so on and so forth. Invent a magical protocol that "melts fat away and builds muscle" by simply employing it-low carbs, paleo eating, you name it-in order to trick them into eating less and voila. Though counterintuitive, the correct path seems to be that of extreme complexity...because ppl need to feel they`re doing really important, complex crap, they don`t want the basics, they`re over the basics.
It`s the same with HST. Bryan made it more than fool proof-he formulated basic ideas in a very appealing manner, he ensured that all of the important aspects are obvious, covered, and pseudo-magical(the weight progression-most lift the same weights their entire lives, and wonder why they aren`t growing the big musclez), injury safe-guards(the 15s), "forced" lay-offs(forced as in making them look like really really advanced stuff, because otherwise, were he to simply appeal to common sense, most would`ve screamed OMG Ghey or something along those lines), optimal frequency(actually a minor compromise here, as 48 hrs may be a bit on the overestimating side of things WRT protein synthesis et all...if you train AM/PM though, you`re in the 36 hour sweet spot) etc. And ppl are still screwing it, can`t build a program by simply using the universal principles(which existed before HST, though not as coherently put together), and even in light of their own idiocy, blame the program. That`s how we work, God was a joker.
So yes, psychology is hugely important, but again, and I think you`ll agree(and I finally see your point) no matter how you drape it, putting a nail through a skull is still stupid(an example)
Training in suboptimal, misguided and dare I say asspulled ways is still an inefficient, crappy way of building muscle(if you actually manage to build anything beyond the begginning growth spurt), no matter how much you believe in them. I guess what I`m saying is this(and it`s the same with diets, IMO):start with physiology, set everything up to be as optimal as possible WRT what we know about the human body/what works, then add the mystical layer meant to induce adherence. It`s what Bryan did. It`s what Lyle does. It`s what Kelly Baggett does. And there are a few others.
It`s the same with HST. Bryan made it more than fool proof-he formulated basic ideas in a very appealing manner, he ensured that all of the important aspects are obvious, covered, and pseudo-magical(the weight progression-most lift the same weights their entire lives, and wonder why they aren`t growing the big musclez), injury safe-guards(the 15s), "forced" lay-offs(forced as in making them look like really really advanced stuff, because otherwise, were he to simply appeal to common sense, most would`ve screamed OMG Ghey or something along those lines), optimal frequency(actually a minor compromise here, as 48 hrs may be a bit on the overestimating side of things WRT protein synthesis et all...if you train AM/PM though, you`re in the 36 hour sweet spot) etc. And ppl are still screwing it, can`t build a program by simply using the universal principles(which existed before HST, though not as coherently put together), and even in light of their own idiocy, blame the program. That`s how we work, God was a joker.
So yes, psychology is hugely important, but again, and I think you`ll agree(and I finally see your point) no matter how you drape it, putting a nail through a skull is still stupid(an example)
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 25 2007,12:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, basically, it`s the same thing with dieting(and religion, but I don`t want to go there, nor will I ever on this board or any other for that matter). Tell a man/woman that in order to lean out he/she simply needs to eat less and move more...and watch them find a billion ways of rationalizing even the craziest stuff, eating their guts out whilst being convinced they eat less and so on and so forth. Invent a magical protocol that "melts fat away and builds muscle" by simply employing it-low carbs, paleo eating, you name it-in order to trick them into eating less and voila. Though counterintuitive, the correct path seems to be that of extreme complexity...because ppl need to feel they`re doing really important, complex crap, they don`t want the basics, they`re over the basics.
</div>
Funny story, I once bought a book about magic spells dating back to the 19th century. The thing that struck me the most was how elaborate all those spells were: You had to cut that many inches of leather and knot them together in that and that way, position them on the ground so it forms a certain symbol, step inside at the right time and perform your ritual when the night-sky looks this and that way.
I asked one of my professors why he thought all those spells were so complex, and he said it's basically a way to ensure that people believe in their powers as long as possible. Because humans will not manage to follow all those rules to the exact point, they will always put the blame on themselves. And continue to attest the magic spell its functioning & power.
As you mentioned, that's the way many popular diet or training routines work. Drink that many oz of this and that shake that many minutes before training, spend half your work-out-time stretching then don't train longer than 1 hour, if it doesn't work you're either under- or over-trained...
I know this is getting OT, but I just found the similarity between magic spells of 1859 to modern day fitness-routines too striking to pass up.
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 25 2007,12:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, basically, it`s the same thing with dieting(and religion, but I don`t want to go there, nor will I ever on this board or any other for that matter). Tell a man/woman that in order to lean out he/she simply needs to eat less and move more...and watch them find a billion ways of rationalizing even the craziest stuff, eating their guts out whilst being convinced they eat less and so on and so forth. Invent a magical protocol that "melts fat away and builds muscle" by simply employing it-low carbs, paleo eating, you name it-in order to trick them into eating less and voila. Though counterintuitive, the correct path seems to be that of extreme complexity...because ppl need to feel they`re doing really important, complex crap, they don`t want the basics, they`re over the basics.
</div>
Funny story, I once bought a book about magic spells dating back to the 19th century. The thing that struck me the most was how elaborate all those spells were: You had to cut that many inches of leather and knot them together in that and that way, position them on the ground so it forms a certain symbol, step inside at the right time and perform your ritual when the night-sky looks this and that way.
I asked one of my professors why he thought all those spells were so complex, and he said it's basically a way to ensure that people believe in their powers as long as possible. Because humans will not manage to follow all those rules to the exact point, they will always put the blame on themselves. And continue to attest the magic spell its functioning & power.
As you mentioned, that's the way many popular diet or training routines work. Drink that many oz of this and that shake that many minutes before training, spend half your work-out-time stretching then don't train longer than 1 hour, if it doesn't work you're either under- or over-trained...
I know this is getting OT, but I just found the similarity between magic spells of 1859 to modern day fitness-routines too striking to pass up.
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 25 2007,12:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...It`s what Kelly Baggett does. And there are a few others.</div>
I've only read a bit about Kelly Bagget's stuff, and to me he seemed very straight to the point. His stuff about improving a persons sprint speed is so very simple. And although I've never tried it, I'm sure it work.
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Apr. 25 2007,12:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...It`s what Kelly Baggett does. And there are a few others.</div>
I've only read a bit about Kelly Bagget's stuff, and to me he seemed very straight to the point. His stuff about improving a persons sprint speed is so very simple. And although I've never tried it, I'm sure it work.
Morgoth the Dark Enemy
New Member
You`re fairly right...scratch most of the psychological magic crap when it comes to Kelly. Me is stupid and mixes things up like that.
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(Fausto @ Apr. 26 2007,09:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">new scope this board seems to be taking.</div>
? ? ?</div>
Actually I tend to agree, some of the "mindless, do what he does" posts as of late lend me to some serious head shaking.
(Fausto @ Apr. 26 2007,09:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">new scope this board seems to be taking.</div>
Actually I tend to agree, some of the "mindless, do what he does" posts as of late lend me to some serious head shaking.