What are 'necessary' supplements?

S

Sphinx

Member
What does everyone think are 'necessary' supplements?
Mulit-vit
EFA's (CLA, Fish oils, ect.)
Glutamine
Taurine
Zinc
Creatine (?)
Protein (difficult to get enuf and variety)
Ect.
This is just off the top of my head. Are all these necessary or not? Why? What else? What dossages?
This would be real good info for those of us that arent up to date of our supp's.
Peace, Sphinx.
 
Dude. No supplements are necessary. Most aren't even required for fantastic results.

A LOT of supplements are taken to get an 'edge'. But the problem is that you never really know if you experienced more gains because of the supplements.

For example. I used to get sick about every two weeks. I thought about Vitamin C, glutamine, etc. because I thought I was over-training (though I couldn't gain on less volume).

You know what I did in the end? I ate more carbs post workout. That's it. Ever since then, I'm rarely sick, unless I'm stupid.

Each supplement has a desired effect. You only need to take that supplement if you want to supplement that effect.
 
So you dont think a multi-vit/mineral is necessary? Eating enuf fruits and vegetables in order to get the measly RDA of vits and mins is not in concert with eating to get cut or bulk. At least that I have been able to figure out.
Peace, Sphinx.
 
I vote for

(1) protein powder (without it, difficult to get enough)
or meal replacements.
(2) creatine
(3) CLA, EFA, (or perhaps ALA?)
(4) ECA or NYC stack for cutting
(5)* hormone supplement
laugh.gif


That is about it.
 
I was talking to a buddy at the gym I dont see all that often and he mentioned it. I was trying to find out more myself. When I do find out, Ill post it.
Sphinx
 
"Eating enuf fruits and vegetables in order to get the measly RDA of vits and mins is not in concert with eating to get cut or bulk"

measly RDA, where can you find real proof that most people need more. Maybe in the real restrictive diets that some bodybuilders think are necessary to 'achieve' their bodies.
Certain people can generally do with multivits, restrictive dieters, people eating <1500kcals.
Sure you can also go along the lines of its insurance, and it cant hurt. But in reality, its more important to eat your nutrients.
Why?
Because the foods that contain them also have vast quantities of other substances, phyto chemicals and the like. Most antioxidant studies with supplemental antioxidants havent achieved much in terms of success, when compared with diets rich in the anti oxidant substances (general health/cancers etc). This is likely because the health benifits may not be from the antioxidants themselves, but from substances associated with them in foods (a confounder in statistical terms).

No supplements are necessary.
Sure protein powders are handy, especially for some. But I would still rather eat some cow, or drink some milk. Fish oils are handy, but I can still eat salmon. Glutamine isnt gonna do a lot for anyone (maybe if you are burnt). taurine is one of serranos ideas, its just more dreaming. Zinc, I would rather eat some cow than take the pill.

Outta the list you have shown, about the only one that may be of use to any normal, well eating person is creatine, but then again, if they are eating enough meat, even this aint gonna make a difference.
 
As others have said, in general it's much better to focus on your basic diet rather than expend a lot of money on supplements to get an "edge" that is virtually insignificant, all things considered. As I get older, I realize all the ways I have wasted time by applying energy in the wrong places. I used to eat terribly, and then try to make up for it with all kinds of supplements. I've found that just by eating lots real food regularly, including plenty of beef, fish, and milk, vegetables, fibrous fruits, and whole grains, I've made gains far exceeding what I did when I didn't think about those things and choked down all sorts of powders. Eating well does cost more, and I have a limited budget, and I'm convinced that $30 in steak is immeasurably more anabolic than $30 in glutamine!

Right now, the only supplements I use are:

whey protein (for breakfast sometimes, and before workouts)
creatine, when I am gaining (and I could easily do without)
o3 (flax and fish oils)
multivitamin
 
Aaron,

I agree that real food is _much_ superior to
supplements. However, getting enough of the necessary
"ingredients" for muscle building from real food is
not easy. The problem is the calories.

By taking supplements, it is much
easier to provide the body with most of the
necessary nutrients without going over the caloric limit.

[Just think of the amount of red meat you need to
eat to get the recommended working dosage of creatine.]
 
Unless the RDA has been reevaluated in the last 50 years I think it is a bit on the low side. From what I understand that numbers are sufficient to basicly keep one alive and in general good health. Now add the extra stress of weight training and extremely active lifestyles along with increased mental stress and fatigue most of todays work force is under (increased from the 50's) and our nutritional needs just might be incredibly different. If Im to ingest enuf vegetables to get the increased amount of micronutrient my body needs, I am going to have to set aside the protein and carbs and fats I need to meet my hypercaloric needs to grow. So far this has been my general idea on my need of Multi-vits.
As far as the rest of the list I have above, I agree with most all of you. Those are for an 'edge'. Though, just about all of us are looking for an 'edge'. If we werent I dont think we would be lifting at all, let alone using HST.
The word 'necessary' was a poor choice on my part. I should have used ...supplements to create an 'edge'.
Lets say bye-bye to 'necessary' and bring in 'edge'.
What supplements are best for creating that 'edge'?
Thank you all for your posts in this thread. I wouldnt be improving if it werent for the contributions!
worship.gif

Peace, Sphinx.
 
Okay, "edge" I know!

Multi-vitamin ... get a good one, chop it in half, and eat the two halves at different times of the day. Probably not a discernable difference, but your general health should stay a bit better.

Fish Oils. I did an experiment on myself for these, and I found that my DOMS was lower if I took them. As well, the theory is that they help reduce your immune reactions (spending more time building and less time tearing down).

Carbs. Knowing what to do with your insulin levels - which are very important for many factors - is a huge, HUGE edge. Want to reduce over-training symptoms? Insulin. Want to get protein into the muscle? Insulin. Want to lose fat? - woah, no insulin. 1000% the most important edge. Heck, I'd put carb manipulation way above protein powder (except for convenience).

I am not a fan of Creatine, at all. I think that it's a good product if you want improved performance - but I don't believe that improved performance leads to better gains. A few others believe differently, and I guess some of it is opinion.
 
Where can I read up on some carb manipulation? I read a bit about combining Protein with Carbs and minimal fat, then combining Protein with Fat and minimal fat. This is susposed to prevent one from becoming insulin insesitive. It also susposed to maximize the use of endogenous insulin spikes. I would like to know more.
Peace, Sphinx
 
virtualcyber - AS i said, creatine is possibly the only one, and it doesnt work with everyone, especially people with higher meat diets.

The other nutrients, its goes back to real things, you want to eat nutrient dense, low enegy density foods.  Fruits, vegetables (especially fibrous ones) beans etc as the major staples of any diets.  You have problems getting enough nutrients when you start eating energy dense, low nutrient density foods, like white breads, really processed pasta etc.  You get a lot of good nutrients from good beef, but not from processed beef luncheon.

before he died, I remember dan duchane mentioning basically this, eat an adequate energy diet (not 10,000cals like some bodybuilding nutters), but with HIGH nutrient density. Try to get most of your nutrients from food, as you dont know what else is in there that may help you.

Sphinx - unless you actually have a clue about how dietary reference intakes, and the like are calculated, then dont bother trying to write about them.  They are very difficult to calcuylate, and the latest run of them in the states has brought about a lot of argument (specifically Zinc)
RDA are re-evaluated quite routinely, if you have data from the 50's I suggest trying the later ones like 87 I think, and teh current ones are just getting updated, but its a slow process (they dont just provide RDAs anymore, theres about four different measures they give (where possible) relating to different points on a standard curve)
Just because you have extra stress of an active lifestyle doesnt necessarily mean that your use of vitamins.minerals go up.  Sure in some cases, but most vitamins are co-factors in enzymatic processes, after completing the process it is reused (to a point)
Certain vitamin RNIs (in austrailia/nz at least) are related to protein intake (b6 I think) and total energy intake.  You dont have to set aside protein/carbs for a hyperenergetic diet.  You just alter what you eat.  Instead of eating nutrient poor pasta, try beans which provide protein and fibre, as well as a bunch of nutrients.  Unless you are a nuts Tmagger, you can have certain fruit juices for pre/post workout carbs, which provide energy and nutrients, something dextrose cant do.  Eat meat for your protein instead of using a protein powder provides lots of b vits, iron zinc yada yada yada.
Getting massive amounts more than the RDAs are easy. its all about choice.
And the food combining thing is on Tmag, I wont bother critiquing it here, just do a search on misc.fitness.weights for lyle mcdonald, ignore all the posts about monkeys and porn and whatever else has gotten to him, and read his posts earlier this year on Tmag.
 
You are right -- I am not disagreeing with your point.

It is just that ... eating as you prescribe seems to
require a lots of effort. Let me explain why it seems
so difficult. Take for example, white bread. I have
thought about switching to wheat bread,
because I have heard that
white bread is no good.

Well, guess what -- most wheat bread on supermarket
_is_ processed, so that the carbohydrate can be absorbed
by human body as just as quickly as the white bread.
The fact that it is "stone-ground," as it turns out, doesn't
make any difference, because of the way wheat flour
is processed with additives.

So, now I need to go to specialty grocery to get
my bread. I need to drive 35 extra miles, to purchase
"good" bread, and "specialty" pasta.

Okay, but I still need to watch out, because
there are natural foods that have high GI -- so,
these are energy dense too. Things like potato,
rice, etc. So, let us say we eliminate these from
diet. [After having eliminated bread].

So, at the end of the day, what in the world
am I supposed to eat? Meat and salad!
Somehow even that does not look as easy.

Assuming that I am computing _all_
the vitamins I am taking in, I need to purchase
the right amount of all vegetables to cover
my vitamin needs. If I am missing anything,
I gotta supplement it. This seems a lot of work,
because there are more than 1 vitamin.

Now, finally, I need to worry about creatine,
EFA, and CLA. I will probably need to calculate
how much fish I must eat every day. As for protein,
I also must compute the amount of protein for
chicken, steak, canned tuna (boy I have this stuff),
canned chicken (just gross).

===================================

Perhaps you can understand why I am tempted
to take multivitamin pack, EFA pills, and protein powder,
and forget about the benefits of real food.
 
Admittidly I dont have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to how the body processess vits and mins. I was going out on a limb with the RDA info from the 50's
tounge.gif
I should have double checked before I spewed. I do have to agree with VC about your recommended eating habits.
For one: INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE! At least here in 'hick-ville' USA.
Two: If Im filling up on high fiber (which take for ever for your gut to break down. Which in turn keeps you feeling 'full' longer) and nutrient dense foods then there is a trade off somewhere. Can I really have my cake and eat it too (pun intended) when it comes to aquiring my micronutrient needs along with my macronutrient needs? I burn cals like a furnace and require a huge amount of carbs in order to gain weight. Not to mention proteins and fats.
Three: How am I to know what my body needs in the line of its micro nutrient needs? Im an ectomorph, are my needs the same as an endomorph? If I eat foods to get the 'general' RNI/RDA (I am guessing they are similar enuf) how do I know my body doesnt need increased amount of one particular MN?
Four: How do I know what a stick of celery has in it? Or a sweet potatoe? How can I be sure I am getting what my unique body needs from such a variety of vegetables? Even two similar looking pieces of food can have a wide difference in what nutrients they contain.
Five: "You are only as strong as your weakest link." Why leave my health and progress to chance?
I would love to be able to implement your methods and make them practicle, but with the info I have its not an option. I love a good vegetable soup or even raw and plain (broccoli is a favorite). Fruit I look at as a treat even. But eating enuf (not to mention shopping to keep the cuboards stocked with freshness, prep time, difficulty of storage there after) to aquire the calories I need would make me sick. If I can find a way to do so then Im game! I do appreciate your info though and will keep it in mind next time I hit the market.
Peace, Sphinx.
 
I should change that face next to my name, it makes my messages seem more aggressive.

To short awnser most of the questions,
it depends (1$ to lyle)

THe main part of the diet should be unprocessed foods. Once a large proportion of these have been eaten, there is still the possibility to have lots of other foods, fats included.

THe base of my diet is around meat, veges and fruit. Then on top of that is whole wheat bread (generally either store brought or homemade-slow fermentation homemade is best!)
and a little pasta (not a lot cos the energy is too easy to add up)
But the majority of energy comes from whole fruit and veges. Oats are good, relatively energy dense if uncooked, but not if uncooked.
WHite is ok as long as it doesnt take up the BULK of your diet.
This is normal dietary practice.

Ok. For your question two, see above.

Question three - The RNI's are basically recommended intakes, they are calculated from the upper 5% level on the std curve of the nutreint needs formed from a rather large amount of studies. That way it will cover the needs of ~95% of the population. So if the RDA for calcium is 800mg and you are only getting 500, it doesnt mean that you are deficient in it. Because the needs can be anywhere in that 95%. (while it is possible that you are in the 5%, thats where statistics starts going into play)

Question four - Bodybuilders are nuts. Its taken me a number of years to get to this point but I Think its definately the right one. You must know that X is the defiante thing.
You will never know if you are getting the right amount. If you take a multivit, how do you know that you are not limiting your results due to excess of a certain nutrient?

Im poor as well at the moment, because i work almost full time to support my wife and two kids, whilst studying full time. ITs hard keeping enough fruit and veges going to keep me filled up, i rely on frozen a lot. NZ is relatively cheaper for most things, but also wages are lower to meet that.

Its all hard work, in the perfect world, it would be a lot easier.

Its the main reason for so many convenience foods, and also probbly a lot to do with the current obesity epidemic. Easy access to high energy, low nutrient foods.
Would convenience foods plus multivitamin make up for the lack of fruits and veges, probbly not
 
>I should change that face next to my name, it makes my
> messages seem more aggressive

Your old face was a "smiley face" with an angry look --
it was causing cognitive dissonance for me. But hey,
that's what made it work!!!

> Would convenience foods plus multivitamin make up for the
> lack of fruits and veges, probbly not

That is like asking, Can formula milk for babies ever
replace mama's milk? Can Britney ever replace
Led Zepplin? Can inflatable dolls ever
replace real females?

Probably not.
 
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