Who is wrong?

C

chooseausername

New Member
I'm a 25 year old getting back into lifting after a couple of years of inactivity.

I want to stick to the minimalist routine below:

bench press
cable pulldowns / pendlay rows (alternate workouts)
dips
military press
squats / deadlifts (alternate workouts)
abs

running


My trainer claims that I should be doing all of the isolation movements and machines because my muscles will become "unbalanced" -- i.e. certain muscles will become too strong compared to others.  Specifically he says that my hamstrings will not grow proportionally with the quads in my routine and this will cause problems.  The claim is that these imbalances will lead to worse and worse form and eventually injuries.  In addition, he claims my left and right arms won't work the same amount when doing bench press, for example, so I should do some kind of chest machine press for each arm separately.


Bottom line, who is correct?
 
Your trainer sounds like...well, the usual sort of personal trainer.

That said, your routine IS unbalanced heavily in favor of pushes over pulls 3:1 for any given day. In the very least, I'd include chins/pullups/pulldowns in there as well.

With an intelligently set up minimalist routine, you're not going to wind up randomly imbalanced per se, assuming form and so forth is proper.

Of course, even the most balanced routine in the world done shittily (form etc) can cause long term problems, so make sure you have someone qualified (possibly not the personal trainer) assess how you're performing these movements.
 
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(mikeynov @ Dec. 16 2008,10:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Your trainer sounds like...well, the usual sort of personal trainer.

That said, your routine IS unbalanced heavily in favor of pushes over pulls 3:1 for any given day.  In the very least, I'd include chins/pullups/pulldowns in there as well.

With an intelligently set up minimalist routine, you're not going to wind up randomly imbalanced per se, assuming form and so forth is proper.

Of course, even the most balanced routine in the world done shittily (form etc) can cause long term problems, so make sure you have someone qualified (possibly not the personal trainer) assess how you're performing these movements.</div>
I'm confused...is the following correct?

bench press - push
cable pulldown/pendlay row - pull
dips - push
military press - push

Aren't chins/pullups basically the same as pulldowns?

Also, I don't understand the concept of push and pull when applied to the legs. I guess everything is push? Will squats/deads work hamstrings and support muscles enough (in addition to quads and butt)?

Any further input to help my routine setup? thanks Mike!
 
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(chooseausername @ Dec. 16 2008,11:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Dec. 16 2008,10:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Your trainer sounds like...well, the usual sort of personal trainer.

That said, your routine IS unbalanced heavily in favor of pushes over pulls 3:1 for any given day.  In the very least, I'd include chins/pullups/pulldowns in there as well.

With an intelligently set up minimalist routine, you're not going to wind up randomly imbalanced per se, assuming form and so forth is proper.

Of course, even the most balanced routine in the world done shittily (form etc) can cause long term problems, so make sure you have someone qualified (possibly not the personal trainer) assess how you're performing these movements.</div>
I'm confused...is the following correct?

bench press - push
cable pulldown/pendlay row - pull
dips - push
military press - push

Aren't chins/pullups basically the same as pulldowns?

Also, I don't understand the concept of push and pull when applied to the legs.  I guess everything is push?  Will squats/deads work hamstrings and support muscles enough (in addition to quads and butt)?

Any further input to help my routine setup?  thanks Mike!</div>
Legs are less obvious in logic.  I usually divide it as &quot;knee extension dominant lower body&quot; and &quot;hip extension dominant lower body.&quot;

Knee extension dominant lower body = squat variants, leg presses

Hip extension dominant lower body = deadlift variations, back extensions, glute ham raises, pullthroughs, etc

It's worth pointing out here that properly performed, deep squats are not truly &quot;knee extension dominant,&quot; they are a lovely blend of both knee and hip extension such that a reasonably compelling argument could be made that doing ONLY squats for lower body work would probably make your entire lower half grow just fine.  Deadlift variants on top of squats, however, will work better.

Either way, I simply try to include both &quot;types&quot; of lower body work in my routine.  At some point, unilateral work (split squats, lunges, etc) is probably not a terrible idea.

As far as designing a basic routine, I consider the &quot;foundation&quot; movements to be the following:

Knee extension dominant lower body (as above)
Hip extension dominant lower body (as above)
Vertical push (shoulder press variations)
Vertical pull (chins, pulldowns, pullups, etc)
Horizontal Push (bench variations, dips)
Horizontal Pull (row variations)

Example routine:

Squats (2-3 times weekly)
Deadlifts (once weekly)
Shoulder presses (2-3 times weekly)
Pullups (2-3 times weekly)
Bench press (2-3 times weekly)
Chest supported or cable rows (2-3 times weekly)

Extras possibly worth doing:

Calf work
&quot;Core&quot; work (abs and so forth)
Direct arm work
Isolation-y stuff as needed (e.g. if bench isn't getting your pecs to grow enough, add some flyes, etc)

Hope this helps.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm confused...is the following correct?

bench press - push
cable pulldown/pendlay row - pull
dips - push
military press - push</div>
that is correct but as mickynov said,you have 3 pulling exercises and only 1 pushing,i would add the pendlay or low pulley row,on squating days as well as pulldowns,then on deadlift days drop them.
 
How about:

Bench presses alternated with dips
Cable pulldows or chins alternated with pendlay row
Deadlifts alternated with Squats
Military press alternated with upright rows
Abs
Calf work

The nature of these exercises won't allow for a big (maybe not even a small) unbalance between sides. As mikey mentioned a full squat (ATG) will work your hams pretty well, so you basically have everything covered.
 
Choose

Your trainer is wrong, lets call a spade a spade
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Most isolation exercises are not used in real life movement, whereas most compound movements are.

Unbalancing....mmmm....he should go and read some reasearch, one good place to start would be the muscle charts for compound exercises on ex-rx.net.

Electric suggestion looks pretty good IMO, but nevertheless, go over to Simplify and Win, not that I am &quot;beating me own drum&quot; but there's plenty there to suit your liking!

Anyway...this is just my two cents, but I really hate to see people having to use &quot;trainers&quot; when we have enough material here to guide anyone at anytime! There are however times when these are knowledgeable and useful specially to people who do not have the discipline to do it themselves!
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Tell your trainer that you want your money and your time back.

Fausto, it's okay to beat your own drum. Dont believe the myth about going blind ;)
 
All I can say Fasuto's program is awesome and to be honest I gave simplify and win HST program works great for me.. But for Fasuto, with all due respect man, how about the strength imbalances for example my right chest grows bigger than my left, the same thing with my arm.. Just want to hear your suggestions man cause i'm really interested with this matter.. in bodybuilding we want proportioned growth right? And as for the trainer of choose, this isn't to say that he's right in his approach to working out all the way but he also has some point as far as strength and muscle balance is concerned.. Yes we do have to simplify things but is it also good to incorporate some other movements such as the independent, plate-loaded Hammer Strength/Nautilus chest press machine in replacement of the Basic and Effective Barbell Bench Press if you had experience muscle imbalances? Man we need honest suggestions here, we're not debating here but helping one another achieving our goals, to have a better and more muscular bodies..
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I've never heard of bench press being able to cause uneven development. If you are getting uneven development between left &amp; right sides I'd say it's almost certainly due to poor form, i.e. pushing with the right side first before bringing in the left side (so the bar starts off skew and/or goes up skew the whole way).

I would suggest you need to retrain your muscle firing patterns by concentrating on doing the exact opposite to what you are doing e.g. move the left side first and or lead with the left so the bar is skewed the opposite way. Or simply do single arm dumbell bench presses for a while to correct it, but you must in the end make sure you are using good form so both sides develop equally. HST should be ideal for that as it gives you plenty of opportunity to use lighter weights where you can concentrate on good form.
 
you could use dumbells also,as another option,that way both sides are pushing the same weight.
 
Ryder, you won't be able to keep strength inconsistencies for very long doing barbell bench press or you will lose balance of the bar. Of course you are not supposed to adjust the grip on the bar to favor any side, it should be even. Doing single arm exercises is much more likely to cause that since you can use cheat form on your weaker side and strict form on your stronger side and end up with muscle differences not to mention injury. One side might make more effort then the other but the nature of these exercises won't let that disparity go too far.
That said there is nothing wrong Hammer Strength/Nautilus chest press machine only that it doesn't require the activation of stabilizing musculature thus usually providing less overall growth.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've never heard of bench press being able to cause uneven development. If you are getting uneven development between left &amp; right sides I'd say it's almost certainly due to poor form, i.e. pushing with the right side first before bringing in the left side (so the bar starts off skew and/or goes up skew the whole way).</div> Well man you had it, proper form is always a must in any program, whether bodybuilding, powerlifting, plyometrics etc.. And wait I didn't said that the bench press causes muscle and strength imbalance, what I mean there is any 1 bar movement whether its barbell bench press, military press, rows etc, any bilateral movement has its imbalance potential, what if your left arm is really weaker? <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> I would suggest you need to retrain your muscle firing patterns by concentrating on doing the exact opposite to what you are doing e.g. move the left side first and or lead with the left so the bar is skewed the opposite way.</div> Sorry to say but what do you mean man? is it to visualize your firing patterns? If I'm to execute it, its hard to imagine man, oh on a dumbell yes but on a barbell maybe its possible but I still can't imagine..
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gdf
 
Well Electric you hit the nail with the hammer again.. thanks man.. all the person need is maybe dumbbell presses or maybe to concentrate more on his form by using a lighter weight on the bench press for example.. That's what I like here in the HST forum, every opinion is welcome and well respected.. Now my program goes as this, which is the simplify and win program by Fasuto with a little modification..

MWF
Squats alternated with Deadlifts
Bench Press
Lat Pulldown alternated with T-Bar Rows
Standing Barbell Military Press
Abs - Plate Loaded Cable Crunch
This program is short and sweet avoiding the burnout like the plague..
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<div>
(ryder22 @ Dec. 19 2008,11:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> I would suggest you need to retrain your muscle firing patterns by concentrating on doing the exact opposite to what you are doing e.g. move the left side first and or lead with the left so the bar is skewed the opposite way.</div> Sorry to say but what do you mean man? is it to visualize your firing patterns? If I'm to execute it, its hard to imagine man, oh on a dumbell yes but on a barbell maybe its possible but I still can't imagine..
biggrin.gif
 
wow.gif
gdf</div>
kumasta Rider,

Just meant that if you tend to move your strong side a few inches before you move your weaker side (many of us do), you may need to try moving your weaker side first. Doing this for a few months in an attempt to stimulate the weaker side more so that your muscle size on each side becomes more even (I thought that was the problem you had).

But as Electric pointed out there shouldn't be much of a difference. The most likely reason for any differences in muscle size/shape is the fact that no one's body is perfectly symmetrical.
 
ok ben reffell thanks.. i'll give that a shot.. by now im deconditioning for 9 days coz i feel i need it, im on the start of 5s around the 3rd workout and i feel that my shoulder joints are sore and needed break.. maybe ive used too much weight too early on my cycle
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">with all due respect man, how about the strength imbalances for example my right chest grows bigger than my left, the same thing with my arm.. Just want to hear your suggestions man cause i'm really interested with this matter.. in bodybuilding we want proportioned growth right?</div>

No problem, my opinion would be that your muscles will eventually come aorund to looking symmetric, they will never beperfect I can tell you that.

You can use dumbells to try and correct it, but even the bar will do it as you get bigger and better, Iwould not suggest much change unless it is a radical difference, I had the sameproblem and with time my chest and arms look alot better.

Hope this helps.
 
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