Why ATG Squats

It depends on what you are trying to do.

Rippetoe's entire philosophy is making a person strong, and not just strong for the sake of it, functionally strong. Lifting as much as weight as possible (power lifting) is not the point, form is. Bodybuilding is most definitely not the point, form is. Doing the exercises at maximal weights with good form is the point because that is how to make a person strong.

If you are thinking about how to manipulate exercises in order to effect the appearance of specific muscles, then you should probably just forget about this Rippetoe fellow.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Apr. 11 2008,18:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I never go below parallel. There is no need for it unless you are a powerlifter.
I have read pages of rippetoe's beliefs about it, but do not agree.
There are much better ways to work the hamstrings than ATG squatting. And squatting shallower allows more load on the Quadriceps, this has been demonstrated in research. ATG squatting targets mainly the glutes. If your goal is a huge ass then do ATG squats.

So, imo, ATG squats are NOT ideal for bodybuilding.
If you want huge thighs do one exercise for quads, like front squats, hack squats, or half squats, and then do one for hamstrings like Romanian deadlifts. Finish 'em off with some isos if you feel like it.</div>
When I did 2x15 below parallel after an SD my quads were on fire with DOMS 48 hrs. later to the point that I could hardly walk. The DOMS in my glutes and hamstrings was mild by comparison and what one would expect after a short lay-off. Why is that? It's because I previously had never subjected my quads to that kind of stress. Nobody squats deeper than olympic lifters and just look at their quad development. Having said that, I will agree that a knee flexed to the max under a heavy load has to be potentially bad for the knee. Additionally, except for those with extremely good hip mobility, most people would probably find their lumbar spine flexing at that depth. However, like quadancer said, going as low as comfortable is probably the wisest thing. And for some people that might mean not going to parallel until they develope the mobility to not round the lower back. However the goal should be to break parallel.

In another post you made reference to not being able to use as much weight when squatting below parallel. Therein lies the real reason most people don't squat below parallel. It's hard!! And you have to park your ego at the gym door, because you're going to have to drop the weight considerably until you develop sufficient strength to come out of the hole.

Do a few good sets below parallel your next workout and tell me where in hurts the next couple of days. I guarantee it will be your quads that are sore and not your glutes or hamstrings.
 
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(EL_VIEJO @ Apr. 12 2008,04:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 11 2008,18:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I never go below parallel. There is no need for it unless you are a powerlifter.
I have read pages of rippetoe's beliefs about it, but do not agree.
There are much better ways to work the hamstrings than ATG squatting. And squatting shallower allows more load on the Quadriceps, this has been demonstrated in research. ATG squatting targets mainly the glutes. If your goal is a huge ass then do ATG squats.

So, imo, ATG squats are NOT ideal for bodybuilding.
If you want huge thighs do one exercise for quads, like front squats, hack squats, or half squats, and then do one for hamstrings like Romanian deadlifts. Finish 'em off with some isos if you feel like it.</div>
When I did 2x15 below parallel after an SD my quads were on fire with DOMS 48 hrs. later to the point that I could hardly walk. The DOMS in my glutes and hamstrings was mild by comparison and what one would expect after a short lay-off. Why is that? It's because I previously had never subjected my quads to that kind of stress. Nobody squats deeper than olympic lifters and just look at their quad development. Having said that, I will agree that a knee flexed to the max under a heavy load has to be potentially bad for the knee. Additionally, except for those with extremely good hip mobility, most people would probably find their lumbar spine flexing at that depth. However, like quadancer said, going as low as comfortable is probably the wisest thing. And for some people that might mean not going to parallel until they develope the mobility to not round the lower back. However the goal should be to break parallel.

In another post you made reference to not being able to use as much weight when squatting below parallel. Therein lies the real reason most people don't squat below parallel. It's hard!! And you have to park your ego at the gym door, because you're going to have to drop the weight considerably until you develop sufficient strength to come out of the hole.

Do a few good sets below parallel your next workout and tell me where in hurts the next couple of days. I guarantee it will be your quads that are sore and not your glutes or hamstrings.</div>
good post!


bellow parallel definitley has its place in bodybuilding and i agree that most people i see squating dont even get to parallel.
im fortunate that i can go atg with my feet flat on the floor, where as my two mates have to use blocks under their heels(no big deal) for squats. to aid in this i would suggest some stretching exercises for the hams and calves. but in the end it will be your physiology that dictates your lifts.

@el_viego, i myself have not had any problems with my knees apart from an old motorcycle injury which gives me some jip. but i too believe going really heavy on a lift atg style would place a lot of stress on the knee, but i have no evidence at hand that can attest to this.


one thing is for certain ,the lower back is at much greater risk when going atg, you have to get this right or its game over.
 
ATG squatting is all about form and flexibility. Lcars mentioned that he could squat ATG with flat feet whereas his two mates had to raise their heels. What those guys need is some flexibility training (and also some practice at lowering the bar on the back). If your hams are tight you will not be able to drop into a low squat without hip rotation, causing the spine to round. This is bad. I couldn't deep squat for toffee when I started a few years ago but I worked on my hammy flexibility with SLDLs and stretching exercises. This helped hugely and now, two years on, I can squat ATG pretty well with no lower back rounding. Dan John's squat boot camp vid is a must see.

Like EL_VIEJO, I find that ATG squats hammer my quads, abductors, adductors, hams and glutes. You have to learn to feel which muscles are being worked through the movement so you can really focus on your hip drive out of the hole. When I fail during a deep squat, it is not usually at the lowest point but rather at the point where my quads should be dominating. With my recent 401lb attempt I failed above parallel, so my quads were working darn hard at that point but were unable to keep contracting. Perhaps that points to some weakness in my quads? I am working on front squats to try to get my quads up a bit.

If you ATG squat properly it is unlikely that you will ever be flexing your knees maximally. However, if you have really large calves or if you are carrying a lot of fat on your legs it would be possible to aid the drive out of the hole by bouncing off your calves rather than by using the stretch reflex in (primarily) your hams which would put unnecessary strain on your knee ligaments. Don't get into bad habits with lighter loads and then you will be less likely to do this when the loads get heavy.

Having recently experimented with bench squats to parallel it became apparent that I could handle a fair bit more weight, but stopping at parallel forced me to focus more on quad drive without the need to also focus on keeping my hams really tight. I could feel that the forces across my knees were different when stopping at parallel (even when I did some touch-and-go reps rather than full sit-down reps).

It's also good to remember that any max attempt will always be more dangerous, whatever the lift, and squats are no exception. Good form is liable to break down quickly if the load is slightly too heavy which opens up the potential for injury when the forces on the body are redistributed.

Most folks here are also doing deads, which use a reduced range of motion for legs, so ATG squatting would seem like a good complement. Once you feel comfortable squatting ATG (and are happy with your form even when the loads get heavy), varying the kind of squats you do is probably a good idea so that you are not working the same muscles through the same range of motion all the time and so that the forces are distributed differently.
 
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(EL_VIEJO @ Apr. 11 2008,18:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When I started doing HST last Sept. I set the safety pins in the power rack to a depth that I thought was as deep as I could squat and squatted until the bar tapped the pins. That way I would consistently squat to the same depth..</div>
That's how I do it. I set the pins in the power rack to just below parallel. Then I make sure the bar taps the pins each time I go down.

BTW: &quot;Chicks dig squat butt&quot; -- Steve Jones
smile.gif
 
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(TunnelRat @ Apr. 12 2008,13:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Apr. 11 2008,18:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When I started doing HST last Sept. I set the safety pins in the power rack to a depth that I thought was as deep as I could squat and squatted until the bar tapped the pins. That way I would consistently squat to the same depth..</div>
That's how I do it. I set the pins in the power rack to just below parallel. Then I make sure the bar taps the pins each time I go down.

BTW: &quot;Chicks dig squat butt&quot; -- Steve Jones
smile.gif
</div>
That just goes to show you that great minds think alike.
tounge.gif
It's the only way I can force myself to squat to the same depth as the weight gets heavier and avoid the natural tendency to cheat.
 
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(nipponbiki @ Apr. 11 2008,22:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It depends on what you are trying to do.

Rippetoe's entire philosophy is making a person strong, and not just strong for the sake of it, functionally strong. Lifting as much as weight as possible (power lifting) is not the point, form is.  Bodybuilding is most definitely not the point, form is. Doing the exercises at maximal weights with good form is the point because that is how to make a person strong.

If you are thinking about how to manipulate exercises in order to effect the appearance of specific muscles, then you should probably just forget about this Rippetoe fellow.</div>
Exactly.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 13 2008,04:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(nipponbiki @ Apr. 11 2008,22:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It depends on what you are trying to do.

Rippetoe's entire philosophy is making a person strong, and not just strong for the sake of it, functionally strong. Lifting as much as weight as possible (power lifting) is not the point, form is. Bodybuilding is most definitely not the point, form is. Doing the exercises at maximal weights with good form is the point because that is how to make a person strong.

If you are thinking about how to manipulate exercises in order to effect the appearance of specific muscles, then you should probably just forget about this Rippetoe fellow.</div>
Exactly.</div>
Nice response Sci. I am glad you didn't take any offense (none was intended) and start an argument.

I will give you a rep point now.
laugh.gif

(didn't seem to help much though, u went from .53 to .57)
 
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