4 Diet myths or not?

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by JonnyH, Nov 16, 2006.

  1. JonnyH

    JonnyH New Member

    Hey so there are so knowledgeable guys here so i thought id go through some of these. There seems to be some ideas around which ive noticed since i started working out which many people have different opinions on. Im just looking for your opinions and reasoning/studies behind why you believe what you do for each one.

    #1: Carbs before bed have more chance of being turned into fat than at any other time of day, especially if simple carbs.

    #2 When eating simple carbs on their own or with some form of fat your simply raising your insulin levels and then flushing everything youve just eaten away off into fat cells.

    #3 Cut out dairy when wanting to lose fat for best results. (Ive seen a quite a few bodybuilders talking about doing this)

    #4 Dont eat fruit when dieting

    ?
     
  2. faz

    faz Active Member

    1.2.3.4. dont really matter if you eat less cals than you burn of you will lose weight.more and you will gain,what time of day you eat doesnt matter its your total daily cals.IMO
     
  3. JonnyH

    JonnyH New Member

    Well im of the same opinion, but im mainly looking for proof or reasoning as to why these are incorrect.

    For example i dont have enough knowledge about how the human body works to be able to say whether carbs are treated differently when theyre still being digested when your asleep rather than when your awake. I have seen often people say they are used innefficiently or more likely to turn into fat when you have them before bed, but again i havent seen any evidence for this either, yet a lot of people seem to follow this advice always stating at most they have a source of fat & slow digesting protein before bed.

    Overall obviously its going to come down to calories in vs calories out. But i want to know the optimal ways to go about doing things, so if dairy or fruits or simple carbs etc are more likely to increase fat gain or slow fat loss i wanna know about it.

    Most desserts for another example consist of simple carbs and fat, so im trying to identify whether in terms of only fat gain/fat loss a dessert like this would have exactly the same effect as say a banana and peanuts, or potatoes and avocados etc if your controlling your calories.
     
  4. Peak_Power

    Peak_Power New Member

    1. My old boss recommends no carbs before bedtime as his cardinal rule of weight loss, apart from exercise and healthy eating generally of course.

    Though overall cals is obviously more important, its good to follow this rule for a few reasons, 1stly its almost impossible to eat above maint cals in a day if you don't eat any carbs for 4 hours of that day (4 hours before bedtime), and 2ndly your body burns mostly fat at night, when your heart rate is low, so take maximum advantage of this time. Don't use this while bulking though.

    2. Not sure what the 2nd one really means, "flushing away" what you've eaten into fat cells? Anyway your body will burn the simple carbs first, and I believe (though not completely certain) that the fat in the food you eat will go straight to fat cells, as your body has plenty of sugar to fuel the fires. So avoid foods high in sugar.

    3. Milk is only 4% fat. That's nothing, so drink lots of milk and enjoy it (its got good protein content too). Cheese is 25-40% fat so try to avoid cheese (pizzas, cheese burgers etc). Proper yoghurt is actually better than "low fat" yoghurt because they add heaps of sugar to it.

    4. Fruit is mostly water and fiber, and full of natural vitamins and minerals. Knock yourself out. (though perhaps follow rule 1 and don't eat before bedtime...)
     
  5. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    It's called nutrient timing I believe. Peak and Faz said it all pretty well. There are even fruit diets, but that wouldn't be good for BB'ers. We need proteins, a bit above average requirements. But yes, carbs and fats together are sort of dietary suicide IMO, because they are both fuels, and the body will pick the carbs first. If you don't burn off the fats too, you pack them on. But it's still the same rule: cals in, cals out.
    As far as going to bed with a gut full of fuels, how are you gonna burn it? Heavy snoring? That's why we use proteins and maybe a little fat at night.
    I used to eat cereal before bed; big difference when I switched to CC.

    Milk? Milk does a body good! But if cutting, I choose skim. Any other time, it's 1 or 2%.
     
  6. leegee38

    leegee38 Member

    There are people with varying degrees of lactose intolerance. For them, milk can cause bloating and make them look smooth. For others it is just good nutritional food.
    Some folks are also more tolerant of carbs. There is full blow insulin insensitivity all the way to people for whom carbs are not a problem. This is why Atkins, South Beach, and other low carb diets work wonderfully for some people but not for everyone. There is no univeral answer.
    The fruit thing is just kind of a myth. Many fruits, especially things like oranges and apples that have a fair amount of fiber, can actually help bodybuilders cut up. Tom Platz used to eat a TON of fruit, as did others. Of course some folks think fruit has no calories and don't count it in their daily intake, and that can cause some problems.
     
  7. mcraec

    mcraec New Member

    going with the fruit theme ... sorry dont mean to high jack ur thread but..... is it true that some foods, fruits i've only heard/read of are "calorie negative" .... e.g strawberries and apples because they need as much calories to digest as they contain .... obviously there is some fabrication in this, just wondering if anyone could enlighten
     
  8. JonnyH

    JonnyH New Member

    [​IMG] The avoiding carbs before bed thing still doesnt make to much sense to me. If you have the carbs earlier in the day rather than at night your still going to end up burning more carbs and less fat at the time u have them or end up with more glycogen at that time. And if im right from what i know of how i think it works, the more glycogen you have stored at any time the lower the % of fat your body burns. Which is why loads of people came out with the "you have to run for atleast X amount of time before you start burning fat". They spent most of that time lowering their glycogen supplies which in turn increased the % of fat being used.

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Nov. 16 2006,19:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As far as going to bed with a gut full of fuels, how are you gonna burn it? Heavy snoring? That's why we use proteins and maybe a little fat at night.</div>
    Surely thats the whole reason sleeps viewed as being catabolic, because your body does need energy during sleep and so starts breaking itself down to provide it. The brain itself needs glucose so hasto break down muscle proteins into amino acids and then convert that into the glucose.

    Peak this is what i meant by insulin flushing what you've eaten into fat cells: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Our body strongly regulates the amount of glucose in the blood available at any moment. Our physiology aggressively prevents excesses of glucose by a significant protective mechanism that relies upon a hormone called insulin. Insulin reduces excessive glucose in the blood by causing the glucose to move out of the blood and into cells. Insulin also causes fats that are in the blood to move into cells.</div>
    In terms of eating carbs &amp; fats at the same time what both quad and peak are saying makes a lot of sense to me as they are both seperate fuels. Though ive also at the same time read a study on food combining (seperating carbs &amp; fat) compared against a balanced diet (not doing so) and there was no significant difference in weight loss between the two (people on the balanced actually lost more).
    Also im thinking now eating fat with simple carbs would ofcourse lower the glycemic index of the meal, as the more fat a meal contains the slower the carbs would be converted into glucose and absorbed into the blood steam, which in turn should greatly reduce the insulin response?
    From this point of view though it would seem that carbs &amp; fats together are going to effect you the same way regardless of whether theyre in the form of a dessert of some kind or so called healthier foods?

    Thats intresting about the lactose intolerance for milk, that makes a lot of sense. The guys ive seen talking about it were normally cutting up for competitions and talking about things like being to smooths so it fits.

    About fruit i know it contains fructose which only the liver can convert into glycogen..which would make it easier to overload the liver, though i dont know how much fructose most fruits contain compared to the amount the liver can hold.
     
  9. JonnyH

    JonnyH New Member

    Also on the whole insulin flushes everything into cells when you raise blood sugar levels to quickly so avoid simple carbs etc ive been sent these studies:

    (&quot;subjects were placed on either a high- or low-sucrose diet for six weeks. In the high-sucrose diet, 43% of the total calories came from sucrose. In the low-sucrose diet, only 4% of the total calories came from sucrose. After six weeks, there was no significant difference in weight loss between the two groups &quot;)
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/4/908

    (&quot;In one eight-week study, there was no difference in weight loss when sucrose (table sugar) provided either 5% or 10% of total calories.&quot;)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....1477496

    So im now unsure of the relevance of even the effects of insulin when calories are controlled. Perhaps the body does always simply find a way to balance itself out all the time and it is only calories in vs calories out. hmmmmmmm [​IMG]
     
  10. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    I may be completely wrong, but my opinion until shown a scientific explanation is that nutrient timing is worthless for controlling fat gain or loss. I think it does have value in terms of bodybuilding due to the windows in which your body has a stimulus for adding muscle. I'm talking about pre or post-workout protein drinks, etc. But in terms of overall weight gain or loss I don't understand how it matters.

    Lets assume that we have person A and person B, both requiring 3000 calories a day for maintenance of the same body weight. Person A eats his 3000 calories throughout the day. Person B also eats 3000 calories, most just before bedtime, largely from carbs. Also, I assume that person B can digest that much food at once, so that all calories ingested by both are utilized.

    Which person gains weight and which loses weight? If you think either gains or loses, explain how, since both are eating at maintenance.
     
  11. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Lifting N Tx @ Nov. 18 2006,02:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I may be completely wrong, but my opinion until shown a scientific explanation is that nutrient timing is worthless for controlling fat gain or loss.  I think it does have value in terms of bodybuilding due to the windows in which your body has a stimulus for adding muscle.  I'm talking about pre or post-workout protein drinks, etc.  But in terms of overall weight gain or loss I don't understand how it matters.

    Lets assume that we have person A and person B, both requiring 3000 calories a day for maintenance of the same body weight.  Person A eats his 3000 calories throughout the day.  Person B also eats 3000 calories, most just before bedtime, largely from carbs.  Also, I assume that person B can digest that much food at once, so that all calories ingested by both are utilized.  

    Which person gains weight and which loses weight?  If you think either gains or loses, explain how, since both are eating at maintenance.</div>
    exactly...
    the only difference between people having the same calorei intake a day may be body composition.
    ie...guy A) 3000cls a day 40%protein40%carbs20%fats.
    guy B) 10%protein40%carbs50%fats
    although they have the same calorei input and output guy A) will retain more muscle because guy B) is not taking enough protein.
     
  12. Peak_Power

    Peak_Power New Member

    A person who manages their diet better (eating throughout the day, avoiding muscle catabolism) will retain more muscle mass through the cutting period, so his metabolic needs will stay closer to the hypothetical 3000cals. The person who messes around with their diet will have their metabolism slow down, but continue to eat 3000cals, therefore they may find themselves putting on weight/fat.
     
  13. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I can only quote anecdotally about a guy I worked with who went on a &quot;diet&quot; by not eating during the day, and gorged at night. His caloric intake was about the same, but he got fatter. He wasn't an athlete, just a worker.

    When I quit eating cereal at night and switched to proteins and fat, I lost inches. Whatever that means to anyone. (or me, I dunno)
     
  14. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    Peak, your explanation seems somewhat plausible. I think it takes a fair amount of muscle to make a big difference in calorie requirements, but changes in metabolism could perhaps make a significant difference. If dietary changes at the same calorie intake have been shown to have a large effect on metabolism that would be worth noting.

    For me I can lose weight when the time comes, I'm concerned about the muscle catabolism for its own sake, not so much for small effects on metabolism. I suppose the crux of the matter is under what conditions the body preferentially burns muscle over fat, and how much nutrient timing and composition of calorie sources affects this.

    Unfortunately I think the field of diet and nutrition has even more voodoo and misinformation than does the field of weight training.
     
  15. JonnyH

    JonnyH New Member

    If someones eating a signficant amount of protein every 2-3 hours with a source of fat for example to slow digestion so its almost constantly in the blood stream, why would the body need to break down muscle to get it anyway? Surely simply making sure your body has a constant supply of protein to draw from in some form would stop any need for muscle catabolism?  [​IMG]
     
  16. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Surely simply making sure your body has a constant supply of protein to draw from in some form would stop any need for muscle catabolism?</div>

    You'd think so, wouldn't you? However, if you cut too fast, reportedly you'll lose too much muscle, apparently regardless of protein intake...at least from what I hear. At some point to cut you have to burn stored energy. I think that keeping up your training is the greatest factor that will cause your body to prefer burning fat over muscle.

    Actually you need to have the body prefer burning stored fat over burning the protein that you are taking in. So the question is, given an equal caloric deficit, can other dietary factors influence what your body will burn for energy to favor fat burning over taking the protein that you are taking in and/or existing muscle?
     
  17. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    When I cut out dairy (milk and cheese) I look better!

    But only for cutting!

    Whatever that means... [​IMG]
     
  18. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 22 2006,14:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When I cut out dairy (milk and cheese) I look better!

    But only for cutting!

    Whatever that means... [​IMG]</div>
    maybe your lactose intolerant...which can make some guys look bloated.
     
  19. 4 8 15 16 23 42

    4 8 15 16 23 42 New Member

    <div>
    (JonnyH @ Nov. 16 2006,12:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey so there are so knowledgeable guys here so i thought id go through some of these. There seems to be some ideas around which ive noticed since i started working out which many people have different opinions on. Im just looking for your opinions and reasoning/studies behind why you believe what you do for each one.

    #1: Carbs before bed have more chance of being turned into fat than at any other time of day, especially if simple carbs.

    #2 When eating simple carbs on their own or with some form of fat your simply raising your insulin levels and then flushing everything youve just eaten away off into fat cells.

    #3 Cut out dairy when wanting to lose fat for best results. (Ive seen a quite a few bodybuilders talking about doing this)

    #4 Dont eat fruit when dieting

    ?</div>
    All four are old myths, some of which I once was guilty of beleiving. All have been disproved.

    There are benefits to various methods of nutrient timing and every individual needs to understand how his or her own body reacts. But again, all myths.
     
  20. Cova

    Cova New Member

    Everybody's body is different but I have to agree with every one of those myths except #4 which is complete BS. Food combination plays an important role when you are dealing with fruits, breads, and other processed carbs.

    As far as dairy, if you look far enough into the nutritional effects of milk and the human body, you will find that pasturized cow milk provides you with more problems than it is worth.
     

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