Bodybuilding v Power Lifting

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robefc

New Member
I love the stuff I'm learning about power lifting at the moment.

For example, if someone had asked me a couple of weeks ago what the most important muscle involved in benching was I'd have said pecs...and for squats I'd have said quads...neither even get mentioned in this article from wannabebig.com about westside...

For Bench pressing the very most important muscle are the triceps. That is why all the triceps work is done. The next most important muscle would be the lats and shoulders.
For squatting and deadlifting the most important muscle are the hamstrings followed by the lower and upper back, the glutes, the abdominals and obliques and the hips.

Cracks me up!

Cheers

Rob
 
hmm by important you mean the weakest link in the chain?

Ie. in bench your pec strength is let down by your tricep development, and RC stability etc. Hence why Steve Jones was able to increase his bench in 6 weeks by doing RC and no pec work.

Same with Quads in dl/squat, you need the synergists to be up to par to get the most out of the prime mover.
 
Also note that westside use equipment, and the primary drivers for lifting in equipment are not exactly like unequipped.
 
I don't think that's what the article is saying - the muscles listed are the most important muscles to the lift hence why they are worked separately as well.

I read an article from Tate who was going on about the misconception of benching being a chest exercise when it was really the triceps that was most important, hence the focus on extra tricep work rather than pec work.

Of course with a powerlifting bench the upper arms never get lower than parallel to the floor because of the placement of the bar, the arch and the tucking in of the elbows so I guess from a bodybuilding point of view it's not full ROM and the elbows aren't spread wide to emphasise the pecs.

Cheers

Rob
 
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(Aaron_F @ Feb. 02 2007,03:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also note that westside use equipment, and the primary drivers for lifting in equipment are not exactly like unequipped.</div>
Good point, hadn't considered that.

It is interesting to note how important other muscles are considered to be though, particularly hamstrings for squat and lats for bench...I never would have even considered them involved previously.
 
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(robefc @ Feb. 01 2007,21:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For Bench pressing the very most important muscle are the triceps. That is why all the triceps work is done. The next most important muscle would be the lats and shoulders.
For squatting and deadlifting the most important muscle are the hamstrings followed by the lower and upper back, the glutes, the abdominals and obliques and the hips.

Cracks me up!

Cheers

Rob</div>
In Westside tricep work is an important assistance exercise.  However, the most important muscle in any exercise is the one where you are the weakest.  Do some heavy benching.....now, where do you fail ?  Is it at the bottom or near the top, midway ?  

To Generalize:
Bottom--work on pecs/lats
midway-work on pecs/tris
near top-work on tris
Deadlift--
bottom-work on hams
middle-hams to glutes &amp; lower back
upper-work on upper back

If you have very strong tris but weak pecs (like me), you might read an article like that and decide to put a huge emphasis on your tris when you really should focus on your pecs because you're failing at the bottom of the lift.

Also, when you're wearing a shirt, the bottom of the lift is rarely an issue. A shirted bench is nothing but an exercise to demonstrate tricep strength and your ability to literally pull a barbell down to your chest. First time I used a shirt I couldn't PULL 315 lbs down to touch my chest, and had to dump the weight on my stomach...ridiculous.
 
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(quadancer @ Feb. 02 2007,09:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
I forgot to the mention the quads, which are pretty important in the middle to upper portion of the lift. My best quad workout usually comes from deadlift (and shrugs, lol...thats another story though)

Anyway, that sticky thing is a good idea. I don't want any of my posts up there (i'm not a writer), but I'd like to see some good articles put in the powerlifting section written by rippetoe or another author explaining the biomechanics of failure at different areas in the big 3 lifts so guys will know where they need work.
 
In bench there is no actual part of the movement that all of the pressing muscles are not involved.

Chest, shoulder and triceps as the main ones, are activated fully from bottom to the top of the movement. The differences are basically due to leverages, and the ability of the force being applied to the levers to ultimately the barbell.

This is part of the reason that doing tricep work by themselves achieve little for bench strength, but working various ranges of motion such as board presses, lockouts and all that style of work, work very well.

They train the lockout rather than 'triceps'

But in the 60's when Bill West and all of hte lifters started the Origonal Westside (That Louie borrowed the name from) they had a different concept for which muscles were involved in benching.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Casey, West, Frenn - all believe in super development. In their book muscle size means strength. Isn't that the reason that Pat Casey's arm measures 23 1/4&quot; cold? He constantly fights for tricep development. Powerful triceps get the weight off the chest so that the pecs and delts can close the deal, finish the lift</div>

and

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The initial thrust is carried by the triceps. The delts and pecs cannot exert full power at the start</div>
 
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(Aaron_F @ Feb. 03 2007,02:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chest, shoulder and triceps as the main ones, are activated fully from bottom to the top of the movement.</div>

Even though the tris, delts, and pecs are all fully activated at the bottom of the lift, couldn't success at a certain portion of the lift still be more dependent on one muscle area over another ?

If not, then I assume that speed bench with rest/pause at the bottom is the best thing I can do to improve my RAW bench (I fail at the bottom, so even 1 board presses don't help me much)
 
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(Aaron_F+Feb. 03 2007 @ 02:19--><div>
(steve)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Aaron_F @ Feb. 03 2007 said:
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4) you can also do the bottom equivilant of a board press, instead of overloading the top part of the movmente, perform more of the bottom. DO 1/2 reps at the bottom. Its hard on the shoulders tho.
5) all of the above
Click to expand...
 
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(Aaron_F @ Feb. 03 2007,07:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is part of the reason that doing tricep work by themselves achieve little for bench strength, but working various ranges of motion such as board presses, lockouts and all that style of work, work very well.

They train the lockout rather than 'triceps'

But in the 60's when Bill West and all of hte lifters started the Origonal Westside (That Louie borrowed the name from) they had a different concept for which muscles were involved in benching.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Casey, West, Frenn - all believe in super development. In their book muscle size means strength. Isn't that the reason that Pat Casey's arm measures 23 1/4&quot; cold? He constantly fights for tricep development. Powerful triceps get the weight off the chest so that the pecs and delts can close the deal, finish the lift</div>

and

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The initial thrust is carried by the triceps. The delts and pecs cannot exert full power at the start</div></div>
Aaron, do they not still believe that training the triceps seaparately is vital? This is from an article by Dave Tate

1 ? Train the Triceps

Years ago, if you had asked Larry Pacifico how to get a big bench, he'd have told you to train the triceps. This same advice applies today. This doesn't mean doing set after set of pushdowns, kickbacks, and other so-called &quot;shaping&quot; exercises. Training your triceps for a big bench has to involve heavy extensions and close-grip pressing movements such as close-grip flat and incline bench presses, close-grip board presses, and JM presses.

Various barbell and dumbbell extensions should also be staples of your training program. Don't let anyone try to tell you the bench press is about pec strength. These people don't know the correct way to bench and are setting you up for a short pressing career with sub-par weights. I just read an article in one of the major muscle magazines by one of these authors on how to increase your bench press. The advice given was to train your pecs with crossovers and flies and your bench will go up! This, along with many other points, made me wonder how this article ever got published or better yet, how much the author himself could bench.

I believe articles should go under a peer review board before they get printed. I'd like many of my peers to review these authors in the gym or better yet on the bench to see how much they really know. Bottom line: Train the triceps!

Cheers

Rob
 
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(robefc @ Feb. 04 2007,02:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Aaron, do they not still believe that training the triceps seaparately is vital?</div>
Well the current swings in bench training run on very little isolative tricep movements.

Westside used to have some of the best benchers, now the majority use systems similar to Metal Militia, which performs a lot of specific exercises, that will increase tricep strenght, but more importantly increase lockout strength.


From Metal Militas orignal program, they do little direct tricep work. The majority of it is for high rep work, which appears to be helpful for maintaining healthy elbow joints.

If you take the Joe Average system, which is a bit odd, but was intially used to help Gene to bench 800+ in a single, and finally up to 1000 in a double ply shirt. They dont do any specific tricep isolative work, but will work the 'triceps' with close grip lockouts, board presses and the like. To train the muscle groups in the motion that is needed for benching. Which ultimately means your training the lockout, which includes chest, shoulders and triceps.

For unequipped lifters, they need to be strong everywhere.

In the past they would train bench, shoulders, triceps, partial ROM work, enhanced ROM work, cheating work etc.

If you want to read some of hte oldschool approaches to benching, check out http://www.americanpowerliftevolution.net/BParticles.html
 
Thanks for that Aaron,

Haven't read all the articles yet but the ones I've read are very interesting.

I'm going to add a lockout movement on my benching day rather than isolating the triceps with another exercise...I'm also going to start using explosive press ups on another day to work on speed and 'squat jumps' to work on speed for squats (and I guess there will be carry over onto deads too).

One thing I was thinking about is whether these techniques could be duplicated for chins. Obviously it's not a powerlifting move but it's one of my favourite movements from a bodybuilding/strength point of view. I know that you can handle more weight in the stretched position, so I sometimes do partials at that end of the exercise, but would concentrating on the upper half of the movement work in the same way that lock out movements for the bench work?

I'm thinking that as momentum is generated at the bottom of the lift concentrating on the top half may have beneficial effects from the point of view of bodybuilding and also help with finishing full ROM chins when the weights get heavy. Explosive chins, to improve speed off the bottom, could also be used (let go of the bar at the top...make sure you catch it again on the way down!).

Not sure of these are good ideas or pure bs....?!
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