Bulk / cut research

C

CNoyes

New Member
I've found a ton of stuff here about bulking and cutting, but haven't seen any studies or research cited when arguing it's effectiveness. Does anybody know of any such studies comparing the bulk/cut approach to a control group of lifters? Any other studies that have led to the concept of bulk/cut?

I think HST is great because it's all based in research and studies rather than anecdotal bodybuilder observations. From what I've seen so far, however, the same can not be said for 'HSN.'
 
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(CNoyes @ Jul. 22 2008,11:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've found a ton of stuff here about bulking and cutting, but haven't seen any studies or research cited when arguing it's effectiveness. Does anybody know of any such studies comparing the bulk/cut approach to a control group of lifters? Any other studies that have led to the concept of bulk/cut?</div>
Do you mean comparing bulk/cut to a slow bulk or simply comparing bulk/cut to maintenance? I think it is a given that you need caloric surplus to gain weight (be it muscle or fat) and caloric deficit to lose it.
 
I think he means bulk/cut vs maintenance recomp. I have not seen any research papers comparing the two, but the countless examples of anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. I have to imagine that someone has done some research that is at least relative to the situation. However, it is pretty much established that the only people who make decent headway in recomp at maintenance are 1) noobs 2) experienced lifters who took a long break and got way out of shape 3) Fat people 4) Juicers.
 
Yes, I think a very interesting study would be to have a control group who used HST, and ate enough calories to maintain the same body fat percentage. Another group would use HST and bulk, and then cut until they were at the same percentage body fat as they were before they started bulking. Then compare the lean muscle mass gain from each group.

I would be extremely surprised if this hypothetical study has been done, but there have got to be some studies out there on which the bulk/cut game plan was devised. If not, I have to take bulk/cut with the same grain of salt as people who say you should only hit each muscle group once per week when training (or other methods that violate HST).
 
a persons indiv. partioning ratio is going to drive a good deal of whatever results you might get from those studies(as far as lbm gained as opposed to just gaining wgt). im not saying they would be worthless but subjecting a group of indiv. to a number of bulking and/or cutting protocols over time would provide better info.......but even then perhaps only for those indiv.
 
What I would like to see is a study done to show how far p-ratio can be skewed towards lean mass retention during a cut and lean mass gains during a bulk. Different groups using different training protocols would need to be studied and the results compared (this, of course, for natural trainees, as drugs can really affect p-ratio).

The problem that comes from an alternative to the bulk/cut approach is that in order to eat just the right amount of extra calories to provide enough for growth and minimal fat gain you would need to know exact numbers for daily calories used. As far as I am aware, this is pretty much an impossible task for the average lifter with a life. So, inevitably you have to take in a little more than you really need to ensure you don't end up just treading water. Taking the slow bulk approach is definitely doable if you want to always keep fat gain under control, but if optimal strength and size gains are required then eating enough to gain muscle along with some fat would seem to be a quicker route.

I think if we were able to estimate the potential for how much p-ratio could be altered through training, then I think we would have at least one of the keys to answering CNoyes' question.

Like Bluejacket has pointed out, genetics is bound to play a big part in all this. So the only real way to know how it might affect you would be to test things out on yourself - just like pretty much everything else about training!
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good stuff LOL.

i think the main area where people get in trouble is in the &quot;realistic expectation&quot; dept. this has certainly been a result of yrs of miss-information coming from muscle mags as well as supp. manuf and typical gym bro-telligence.

ive done enough of my own p-ratio info search to know its the one thing most folks are uninformed about yet plays the largest role in how &quot;well&quot; someone will gain muscle. this isnt to say we shouldnt try with ever improving attempts at lifting and eating strategies but unless your completely new to lifting.......you probably have a rough idea of the rate at which you put muscle on. some strategies can improve this (some) but, ime, not drastically.

cutting on the other hand ive found to be different. lifting heavy and often enough (without too much of either) while maintaining a real tight grip on my diet has given me some real nice results. certainly more impressive and &quot;worth it&quot; then any of my bulks to date.

one of these days ill post some info ive personally collected during my last few stints of IF eating/lifting (since fall 07)  for both bulking and cutting as well as re-comp and maint. all of which was in an effort to improve my typically poor p-ratio.
 
I think there are two separate camps of lifters that is never talked about.
a.) Guys who read and heed; they count calories, PFC ratios, timing and measure every sip of water and count every bean.
b.) Guys who like me, are too busy or lazy to do all that; we eat by instinct, and regardless of opinions, get pretty good at &quot;feeling&quot; over or under maintenance.
I've made gains, usually with fat, but have kept gains for the most part except when I did an intentional cut. I've become of the opinion that for true bulking or cutting, type &quot;A&quot; method is crucial. For the rest of us &quot;B&quot; guys, shorter intervals of bulk/cut are required to keep the slop factor down. I tend to see a bit of fat and change my diet. Then my arms thin out and I start looking at peanut butter, bananas, pastas, etc.
The protein intake never changes, as I think it shouldn't.
 
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