carbs for the brain

[kyleman1]

I started the topic of insulin sensitivity and endomorphic diet a few weeks ago. Thanks for your help everyone!

My new topic concerns the brain. If it were my call, id go zero carb because its the best for my body composition as an endomorph. I had to find out first hand though how the quality of your life goes down the drain when you deprive your brain of carbohydrates for an extended period of time. My brain is obviously MUCH more important then my body composition!

I know from personal experience i can down unlimited protein and fat and my body composition will not be adverseley effected. As for carbohydrate, how much is enough? You know, enough to provide for the brain, but not too much as to cause weight gain. I've read that the brain will use 4-6g of glucose an hour. Should I go by this figure? I'm looking for a minimum figure. Thanks

-Kyle

 

[imported_hypercubed]

You actually don't need carbohydrates for brain fuel. The brain can be powered by ketones and the body can also make glucose from protein. So to answer your question as to what the minimal amount of carbs that you could eat is, well the answer would be none. But if you are interested in doing a controlled carb diet, I recommend a cyclic carb intake like Natural Hormonal Enhancement or other diets like it instead of going with no carbs.

 

[Falco]

Quote[/b] (kyleman1 @ April 21 2005,4:48)]As for carbohydrate, how much is enough? You know, enough to provide for the brain, but not too much as to cause weight gain. I've read that the brain will use 4-6g of glucose an hour. Should I go by this figure? I'm looking for a minimum figure. Thanks
-Kyle

Carbs don't make you gain weight, excess calories do.

Quote[/b] ]Seriously, as long as there's a caloric deficit, carbs don't magically prevent you from losing fat despite what many seem to think. Any 'magic' from a particular diet interpretation usually has to do with people spontaneously (or more easily) reducing calories and eating less. Which is fine, controlling hunger/etc. is crucial to diet success.

Quote[/b] ]It's all a way to trick people into eating less without making them fixate on food (which causes psychological anxiety). Which isn't an inherently invalid concept, don't get me wrong. Of course, in reality we find out that while such approaches frequently do work for a while, people invariably compensate and end up eating about the same amount. But they have been so convinced by the diet book's spiel that calories don't count, that you can't get them to even count the calories at all. Atkins dieters are notorious for this: even if they haven't lost a pound in months, they will refuse to accept that they still have to monitor calories because of the line Atkins fed them.

Quote[/b] ]And don't get me wrong, I really wanted it to be true, I really wanted such diets to cause greater fat loss and spare muscle better. I really did. This is just one of those cases where I don't think the research/real world results support the idea that they do.

Once again, all the answers are in the FAQs, but if you insist that you must lower carbs:

Quote[/b] ]I would certainly put carb intake above keto levels (100 g/day) for hormonal reasons. Odds are it'll be much higher than that. How much higher will depend on total caloric intake and how much fat you eat.

Good Luck!

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (hypercubed @ May 21 2005,6:27)]You actually don't need carbohydrates for brain fuel.

for the most part, but overall wrong

 

[BoSox]

Quote[/b] (kyleman1 @ April 21 2005,4:48)]I know from personal experience i can down unlimited protein and fat and my body composition will not be adverseley effected.

ah... so I see thermodynamics are different for you?

 

[Lance]

I used to think protein and fat were harmless and carbs were the one to be careful with as well.

I think this is more or less because with carbs you'll bloat a bit more. Gives the illusion of gaining some fat to me. With low - no carbs, alot of water is lost. You'll look leaner.

In the end though bro, it's the calories that matter.

 

[savagebeast]

Quote[/b] (Bosox @ May 20 2005,4:52)]

Quote[/b] (kyleman1 @ April 21 2005,4:48)]I know from personal experience i can down unlimited protein and fat and my body composition will not be adverseley effected.

ah... so I see thermodynamics are different for you?

I'm not an expert on nutrition or anything, but I think that there could be some truth in kyleman1's statement.

Of course, if you eat over maintenance calories you will inevitably gain weight regardless of whether your excess calories come from protein, carbs, or fat.

However, the source of your excess calories could play a role in nutrient partitioning. Carbohydrates are easily used for fuel and easily stored as fat. Your body has more trouble using protein for fuel and converting it to fat. Thus, if your excess calories come from protein, it *might* help to direct these calories towards muscle and away from fat.

I dug around and found a few posts by Vicious that support this.

Customizing HST (Page 3)

Quote[/b] (vicious @ Feb. 02 2005,4:05)]1) DC's program requires that (natural! trainees eat at least 2g/lbs protein. Although there's little evidence from scientific domestic studies that eating protein beyond 1g/lbs (which is considered a lot anyway) will benefit you beyond extra calories, most serious DC trainees strongly abide by this. I don't think it hurts; it's relatively difficult for your body to convert protein into energy or excess fat. You have two training bouts where mRNA and protein synthesis levels will be acutely elevated as well as the overall summation effect. And, frankly, do you really want to eat all those extra calories in carbs and fat? I think that rec goes up to even 3g/lbs, but for this diet (and the fact that the carb intake would be higher than a normal DC bulking diet), we'll leave it at 2 g/lbs protein.

Gaining too much weight

Quote[/b] (vicious @ May 06 2005,1:10)]5) Rework your protein:carb ratio, at least, on your non-WO days. Protein doesn't get metabolized as easily as carbs or fat, thus excess calories as protein carries less risk around the gut. I favor a Max-OT/DC-ish style diet anyway, as long as you're good and aggressive about post-WO carb intake. Those with high metabolism (such as teenagers), should probably eat more carbs than what either diet suggests. Then again, they don't need to bulk "smart."

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ May 22 2005,3:15)]Carbohydrates are easily used for fuel and easily stored as fat.

Yes

no, and thats not how carbs make you fat

 

[savagebeast]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ May 21 2005,7:34)]

Quote[/b] (savagebeast @ May 22 2005,3:15)]Carbohydrates are easily used for fuel and easily stored as fat.

Yes

no, and thats not how carbs make you fat

No comprendo.

Yes to what and no to what? Could you please explain a little more.

 

[Aaron_F]

Carbs for the most part are not converted to fat

but the direct conversion (de novo lipogenesis) of protein or carbs to fat is not the way they make you fat.

 

[imported_hypercubed]

What is wrong with saying the brain does not need carbs Aaron_F? The brain does need glucose, but glucose can be made from protein and this glucose and ketones will fuel the brain just fine. Now, if you are assuming that I meant that someone should live like this indefinitely, I didn't and I will concede that point, as longterm it could lead to acidosis. So as far as just the brain being fed it would be fed for as long as you live, provided enough protein and fat are eaten but that probably wouldn't be too many years down the road if you have blood-sugar abnormalities or high cortisol levels

Oh and as far as eating over maintenance and gaining weight, I read somewhere (can't remember where right now) that the weight gain isn't what you would expect because the body raises its temperature and to an extent just burns off surplus calories. From my own experience, when I was eating 5,000 calories a day I never could get the air-conditioner cold enough.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (hypercubed @ May 28 2005,1:19)]What is wrong with saying the brain does not need carbs Aaron_F? The brain does need glucose, but glucose can be made from protein and this glucose and ketones will fuel the brain just fine. .

Whether it can be produced from gluconeogenesis or not, the brain needs carbohydrates to function.
Not being required to eat carbohydrate and not requiring it to survive are two seperate things. Carbohydrates are essential for various parts of the brain. Where they come from is a completely different matter

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ May 27 2005,8:47)]Carbohydrates are essential for various parts of the brain.  Where they come from is a completely different matter

Aaron, three questions.

1. When you say carbohydrate are you speaking of glucose? I am assuming so but thought I'd ask.
2. I understood that the Brain and Red Blood cells are the only two organism that must have glucose to survive. Red Blood cells can get the glucose needed through the Lactic Acid re-cycle, but the Brain can only get it from additional carbons from alainine (de novo glucose synthesis), is this correct?
3. Ketoacids can be used for fuel to the brain but from what I have read that only makes up about 75% of the brain's fuel requirement, and glucose from de novo glucose synthesis makes up the other 25%. Is that correct?

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ May 29 2005,9:27)]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ May 27 2005,8:47)]Carbohydrates are essential for various parts of the brain. Where they come from is a completely different matter

Aaron, three questions.
1. When you say carbohydrate are you speaking of glucose? I am assuming so but thought I'd ask.

Yes. not many other forms of carbohydrate are used outside of the liver.

Quote[/b] ]2. I understood that the Brain and Red Blood cells are the only two organism that must have glucose to survive. Red Blood cells can get the glucose needed through the Lactic Acid re-cycle, but the Brain can only get it from additional carbons from alainine (de novo glucose synthesis), is this correct?

and part of the kidney has glucose dependant metabolism.

Quote[/b] ]3. Ketoacids can be used for fuel to the brain but from what I have read that only makes up about 75% of the brain's fuel requirement, and glucose from de novo glucose synthesis makes up the other 25%. Is that correct?

Something like that. Takes some time to ketoadapt (hence hte brain issues for the first week or so)... but there is the requirement for ~75-125g/day of carbohydrates.
The IOM recognise this since htey developed their RDA for carbohydrate of ~130g/day

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ May 28 2005,9:55)]and part of the kidney has glucose dependant metabolism.

Thanks Aaron, I wasn't aware of that.