CNS and TUT

[precious_roy]

I had a couple of questions that are interrelated about CNS fatigue and working to failure + TUT.
First, is there any way to really combat CNS fatigue and overtraining? I probably should explain why I am asking these questions. I am trying to put together a combination DC and HST routine (sort of HST but training closer to failure). DC indicates that you cannot train to failure every other day, so that plan promotes muscle group work every fourth day. If you, say, ate like an animal and rested constantly between bouts of exercise, could you combat this and train to failure every other day?
I am assuming that there really is no way around the overtraining mentioned above, so my second question is would it be beneficial to basically take a DC routine, except add in a smaller volume of each exercise done the previous workout, just to get stimilus every other day? For example

DAY1
Bench 14 x 180
other A exercises...

DAY3
Squat 15x250
Bench 7 x 180
other A exercises at 1/2 volume...
other B exercises...

My thought was, in addition to this, to half the rep speed for the halfed volume exercises, in essence making the TUT constant over the 2 workouts (for example, 2+ 4- seconds would become 4+ 8- seconds). Would that be very beneficial?

 

[precious_roy]

Come on, someone has to have an idea or opinion about this...

 

[jvroig]

Hello Precious_Roy

Well, I'm not so sure really. I personally don't bother so much about time under tension (just me personally, I'm not saying everybody should also stop worrying about it). I just find it better to worry more about volume, load, and shying away from CNS fatigue. For TUT/rep speed, I just follow the simple rule: if the load is much lighter (like when you start your cycle), just do it more slowly so you get a better feel for it. The heaveier it gets, the less your control on the rep speed you get, so you just stop thinking about it and just do it naturally (i.e., instinctively, what speed enables you to finish the set, without getting injured of course).

I'd say you can try that out (your proposal, I mean), and that would be the best thing for you to really get an answer to that question that would satisfy you (but of course tell us the results, too! ). However, I don't get why you would want to train closer to failure. That would really be daring CNS fatigue to set in. As long as you do HST right (and by that I simply mean apply the principles properly, not just follow a basic routine), you won't need the extra sets really, because it would hardly make a significant and noticeable difference (IMHO). Depeding on the conditioning of the muscles and the load, it can take as little as 4 reps to stimulate hypertrohpy (80-90% of your 1RM), and just 10-12 reps on your lighter loads, which is exactly what you'll be doing for them during your 10's and early 5's. Training closer to failure would only burn more calories due to the extra sets/reps that you'd end up doing. After a few workouts like that, CNS fatigue will probably set in and it'll take at least a week (or sometimes even more depending on other factors) for you to recover from that.

Well, that's my take, based on what I understood from what you just said. If I didn't quite get you, my apologies Just clarify what you think I missed, and we can take it from there.

Regards!
-JV

 

[precious_roy]

Yeah, I have been trying it out. Seems to be working well for strength. Also I do not seem to be experiencing signs of overtraining, so that is also good. I will definatly keep a log (myself) and report the results versus normal HST, which I have had much success with.

The reason that I wanted to train closer to failure was to get more strength gains out of the workout than HST alone. I did not get much out of my HST routine (obviously that wasnt the point, HST did all that it was supposed to). The number of sets that I do is exactly the same as in my HST routine, simply the number of reps are altered, as well as a 3 exercise rotation for each movement (ie arm flexion - incline dumbell curl, preacher curl, hammer curl...). The only thing that I find I do not like about it so far is that some of the exercises are inferior to others, so I feel dumb doing (for example) tricep rope pushdown. But I will take the good with the bad and give it a shot.


In case I didnt explain it all that well, my intent was to pick a load increment for each exercise similar to my HST load increment (ie 10 lbs per workout for squats, say). Then, each time I execute that exercise, I rep until failure (as opposed to HST, where you rep to a fixed number which is submaximal). Then I rest-pause once and do one more to failure.

example
Squats
Day1 15x200
Day14 14x210
Day28 12 x 220
...

I think this will work better for me because my CNS recovery is better than most (I have done 12x HST without issues).

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]The reason that I wanted to train closer to failure was to get more strength gains out of the workout than HST alone. I did not get much out of my HST routine (obviously that wasnt the point, HST did all that it was supposed to). The number of sets that I do is exactly the same as in my HST routine, simply the number of reps are altered, as well as a 3 exercise rotation for each movement (ie arm flexion - incline dumbell curl, preacher curl, hammer curl...).

You'll get stronger as you get bigger. General rule is: the bigger the increments, the more hypertrophy. The smaller increments are much better for strength gains, but not as much hypertrophy.

Strength gains within a cycle are actually more because of CNS recovery. I think training closer to failure might actually defeat your purpose of "gaining strength", as that would be pushing your CNS more. Also a lot of other factors come into play, like your diet, how much sleep you get, and how you control all the various stresses in your day to day life.

And even if you do keep the number of sets the same as in the HST routine, that really doesn't mean so much because you altered the number of reps dramatically (in order to train closer to fatigue). IMHO, it is really the number of reps in that case which would count more, not really the sets. But again, the point really would boil down to just getting more fatigued and burning more extra calories which might not result in so much muscle gain (noticeably, anyway).

But hey, what you are doing actually is pretty smart. You've tried out HST, want to maximize your workout even more so you try out something, and instead of just wishing or thinking about it, you actually did it after much thinking. So good job!

Tell us your results!

Good luck, keep it up!
-JV

 

[precious_roy]

Quote[/b] ]Strength gains within a cycle are actually more because of CNS recovery. I think training closer to failure might actually defeat your purpose of "gaining strength", as that would be pushing your CNS more. Also a lot of other factors come into play, like your diet, how much sleep you get, and how you control all the various stresses in your day to day life.

Huh, that is interesting. I had always assumed that CNS fatigue was more of a non-linear thing. What I mean is I thought the closer to overtraining you were without going over the line, the better off you were (in terms of strength gains). But right after you crossed that line you immediatly started to lose gains. Would what you are saying imply that training below maximum load all the time is most beneficial? (for example if my max squat was 10x250 would I only increment towards, say 220 during the 10s?)

I realize that I now need more sleep and I am trying to eat more calories in a day. And, like I mentioned, I think that I have abnormally good recovery. I guess at this point I am trying to learn more about the science as opposed to just blindly following the routine, which is good.

 

[savagebeast]

One option for increasing TUT while minimizing CNS fatigue is to use negatives, since the concentric portion of a rep creates more CNS fatigue than the negative portion. If you chose to do this you would ideally have a training partner, otherwise you're limited in your exercise selection. The more the spotter helps you on the concentric portion, the less CNS fatigue you'll induce, therefore allowing you to have more TUT.

However, you said you're interested in strength, so I wouldn't recommend de-emphasizing the concentric portion of the lift.

If you'd like ideas on how to combine HST and DC, search around for a hybrid program designed by Vicious, I'm pretty sure he posted one somewhere around here.

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]uh, that is interesting. I had always assumed that CNS fatigue was more of a non-linear thing. What I mean is I thought the closer to overtraining you were without going over the line, the better off you were (in terms of strength gains). But right after you crossed that line you immediatly started to lose gains. Would what you are saying imply that training below maximum load all the time is most beneficial? (for example if my max squat was 10x250 would I only increment towards, say 220 during the 10s?)

Errr... sorry my fault, I must have been unclear and confusing again. Let's try that again...

My concern is that since you do try to go to failure, that is just (for me) treading so close to CNS fatigue. Sure, you can always say just don't cross the line, but in reality, that is so hard to determine exactly unless you have a ton of electrodes and such stuck on your body all the time. Before you know it, you might actually be well on the way to overtraining and CNS fatigue. And the worst thing is, you don't really even have to take that risk because following HST principles, you'll get muscle and strength gains without having to suffer through CNS.

And it's not that submaximal loads will be most beneficial. Get your true maxes, use that on the last day of every rep scheme. What's beneficial is the progression of load using sufficient weights, getting enough volume to stimulate hypertrophy given the load, and creating an environment more conducive to hypertrophy by training more often, which you can achieve by keeping the volume low.

But like I said in my earlier post, this is all academic. The best thing here is that you already started it and are faithfully keeping a log, as well as vigilantly watching out for signs of overtraining. That's excellent work, so just keep it up. A better discussion would be about the results, which I really look forward to! It's always nice to discover things, and discovery is exactly what you are doing right now.

-JV

 

[precious_roy]

Quote[/b] ]If you'd like ideas on how to combine HST and DC, search around for a hybrid program designed by Vicious, I'm pretty sure he posted one somewhere around here.

I found 1 thread where he discussed the pros/cons of DC versus HST, and actually uses the same idea that I do (half the number of repetitions from the A workout on the B day for once per 48 hour stimulus). However he mentions something he developed called DHST. Is there a link to a thread that describes that? Thanks.

 

[precious_roy]

Well, I'll guess I'll post the (not so complete) results of my 6 week trial run.

Weight: Up 2 pounds.
Strength: Up 7 pounds on bench, 10 pounds on squat.

I had to stop because DOMS became too great when trying to increment the loaded stretches. However, I am glad that I did it because my strength increased much faster than on HST and it enabled me to get a more accurate read on my maximums (more data points). I think that it works very well provided you have done loaded / extreme stretches before (which I hadn't) and know your limitations on training frequency (which I had a good idea of and a better one now).

I have just started a new HST cycle and am attempting the extreme HST described by vicious in a previous post, now that I understand more of the ins-and-outs of the program. Wish me luck, and may God help me consume 4300 calories a day!