Contradictory Bulking Information...

S

SolidGK

New Member
I'm 18, 6'2, 185lb about to start a 8 week bulking cycle, trying to get above 200lb with minimal fat gain (if any). Ill be using a program based on the fitness fatigue theory, alot like HST. This is how itll go...

Weeks:

1: Regular- 4x a week (2x upper, 2x lower)
2-3: Loading- 6x a week (3x uppper, 3x lower)
4-5: Deload- 2x a week (1x upper, 1x lower)
6-7: Loading
8-9: Deload

I will be using the HST principles (2 factor theory, submaximal, etc. and doing 3 sets of each ex. bw 6-10 reps).

Im trying to come up with a good bulking diet. Im a pretty active person, with daily soccer practice for 2-3 hours (i am, however, a goalkeeper and dont do much running around at all)... Unfortunately i have found alot of contradicting information on this webpage, between the articles, the FAQ, and the HSN bulking guide, heres what ive found.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Cals-
BWx16
BWx18-20
BW in kg x24 x1.4 + 500

Prot-
15-20% cals
1gm lb/bw

Fat-
20-30%

Carbs-
Whatever is left
7-10gm carbs per kg (595-850gm!!!)
50-55%

Pre workout-
Avoid fat
50gm carbs/20gm carbs/30gm carbs
20gm protein/15gm protein

Post-
Carbs 1gm/kg BW and same 1-2hrs later
-50gm
-40gm
-20gm
Protein 20gm/30gm alone immediately after and then carbs an hour later?
Fat 1tbsp flax oil
--------------------------
So what combination of these is best for mass gain? im thinking the incredibly high carbs, and then 20-25% fat, 15% protein, and relatively small pre and post workout meals, as glycogen is so high anyway from all the carbs taken throughout 24 hrs and thats what matters.

Also, should my diet be different in different phases (regular, loading, deloading) of my program?

Thanks
Jonathan
 
Dear SolidGK,

1. In all phases including SD, keep protein at 1gm/lb or bodyweight. This means 185gm protein per day for you. I am assuming your bodyfat levels are relatively low, near a single digit or thereabouts. 185 x 4 = 740 calories.

2. To grow, let's stick with 25 calories per pound of bodyweight. This means 185 x 25 = 4625 calories per day. Deducting protein calories from this = 3885 calories per day (971.25gm carbs or 1000gm carbs to make it a round figure). Make up the rest of your calories with carbs. Fat would be intrinsic to the leanest of meats and also, if you use some in cooking but don't let's go overboad on adding fat now. Use just enough to prevent sticking while cooking etc. Also, utilize methods that don't require adding too much fat e.g. baking, roasting, boiling as opposed to deep-frying. The hardest part about clean bulking is getting all those calories from healthy food and many fail to make good gains not so much due to bad traininng but malnutrition.

3. A thousand grams of carbs would be the equivalent of 5kg of raw potatoes a day, or about 1.25kg of raw rice. This is a lot of food, and it might serve you best to make high-nutrient shakes e.g. blending bananas with skim milk plus protein powder. You might even wish to up your fat intake by adding flax seed, natural peanut butter, olive oil to your shakes to increase their caloric content.

4. You tend to need more carbs during the 15s, and less as the weight goes up and the reps come down. But if you are adding drop-sets to the heavier phases of your training, you might still find the carbs useful. Furthermore, you might experience good growth by the end of your 10s phase and you might have to increase calories (from some protein and yet more carbs) rather than decrease calories if you wish to continue gaining. This is so because the growth will lead to an increase in bodyweight, and this new bodyweight needs an uprevised calorie intake for it to be at a level conducive for bulking.

5. You might wish to employ the liquid drinks around your workout for reasons of fast assimilation but also, for ease of digestion... when eating so much, the fear isn't lack of nutrients but indigestion.

6. In SD, continue taking protein at 1gm/lb bodyweight, but drop the carbs until you are at maintenance calories. This is anywhere from 10-15 calories per pound of bodyweight. Let's say you gain five pounds prior to starting SD. This would make your weight 190lbs. You'd be taking 190gm protein = 760 calories, and the remaining (190 x 15 = 2850) - 760 = 2090 calories from carbs, which is 522.5gm of carbs. This is the equivalent of 2.6gm of raw potatoes or 650gm of raw rice.

7. In essence, when bulking, be protein adequate all the time, make up the rest of your calories with carbs, and drop your calories to maintenance during SD if you wish.

To answer your question in specific:
should my diet be different in different phases (regular, loading, deloading) of my program?

Nope. Not really except for SD as mentioned above. But it takes time to build-up to such a large eating capacity, so for that matter, yes, you will be in phases not because we must match calorie intake with the lifting phases but because we must build up to taking that much carbs in one day. When faced with a mountain of potatoes and buckets of rice, we must ask ourselves - is all this worth it for a more muscular body? If the answer is yes, then we force-feed ourselves :D

If the answer is no, we can get around the force-feeding by decreasing solid food intake and having more liquid meals. This may or may not be more cost-effective and also means taking more refined foods that might have less nutrients.

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
To be honest, I am somewhat intrigued with the fitness fatigue theory. Care to elaborate on that?

I am assuming that since it is alot like HST, it is HST :D
 
1000gm of carbs?:confused:
Ive never seen a number that high before, are you serious? What about calories coming from fat (around 900 per day due to heavy flax/fish oil supplementation and the inevitable from food sources)? My bodyfat is around 12%, not quite as low as I would like but fine. I really dont want to gain much more fat than i already have, but obviously a few pounds is expected, and acceptable. Wont this many carbs/cals be way too excessive? These numbers just blow me away. Ill post a link to a good explanation of fitness fatigue theory soon...
thanks for the detailed response
Jonathan
 
Some fat in the diet from food and supplements can make a fair share of calories, and this would depend on how lean your meat is, how you cook your food, how much fish oils you decide to take, etc.

Indeed, 1000gm of carbs is one mother of a carb intake, but factor in your fat intake and adjust it from there. Some people actually take fat in place of carbs and if you do this, try to get the good fat - extra virgin olive oil in particular comes to mind. Some even play with MCTs and I leave this to your discretion. To be honest, fat isn't the bad guy. It's a higher octane fuel if you think calories per gram.

12% BF is quite all right really. Generally, the rule for bulking is to start at a single digit BF then hit 15% before dieting down to a single digit BF again but with a long-term increase in LBM in mind. Since you are at 12%, you can let this go up until you hit 15%.

There are supplements you can take to aid your bulking process.

1. Creatine
2. EFAs- CLA, Fish Oils and even EPO
3. Vinegar - several teaspoons of this after a carb-rich meal is supposed to aid glycogen replenishment in muscles.

Do a search on the supplement FAQ and see. I think the post on vinegar should come up if you do a search with rats and glycogen.

Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dianabol @ Mar. 21 2004,4:18)]To be honest, I am somewhat intrigued with the fitness fatigue theory. Care to elaborate on that?
I am assuming that since it is alot like HST, it is HST :D
Click to expand...
We have the "one-factor theory" and the "two-factor theory". These are both extremely simple training models.

The first theory says that after a workout there is depletion of several substances (could be glycogen, neurotransmitters or whatever). But after a recovery period, there happens a supercompensation of these substances before they return to normal. Optimal rest between workouts would result in the next workout falling on this short supercompensation period for maximal efficiency. As you can guess, the supercompensation phase has not, and will never been proven for the vast majority of biochemical substances. This first theory is also being called the "supercompensation theory".

The second theory proposes that there are two distinct parameters determining an athlete's condition: His fitness and his fatigue. His fitness is slowly changing over time, but his fatigue changes quickly in response to hard workouts and rest periods. The theory also proposes that in general lines the effect of a workout on "fitness" lasts 3 times more than its effect on "fatigue". This is also called the "fitness-fatigue theory".

From Zatsiorsky's book comes an example of how these theories might be implemented by 2 coaches: Before competition, Coach A would recommend that athletes decrease the number of their workouts (and not the load) because according to his calculations this would result in the athlete competing on the supercompensation phase. Coach B would probably decrease the load and maybe increase frequency so that the athlete avoids fatigue (his fitness levels would not be affected according to the "fitness-fatigue" theory).

Now, some people who have read the first 20 pages of Zatsiorsky's book (because this is where all these are mentioned), have thought that the "fitness-fatigue" term is something flashy to incorporate in their "new" bodybuilding program. I don't need to tell you of course that the implementation of this theory on a serious level is done on an athlete basis, according to measurements, observations etc and that these models are extremely simple, like Zatsiorsky says...

Just because someone ignorant says "load one week and deload the next" doesn't mean that he implements the "fitness-fatigue" theory.
dozingoff.gif
 
Dianabol is very hardcore when it comes to bulking diets. He allways suggests very high calories i've seen. I'm not sure if all that is neccessary, but i'm new. I've been lifting for 4 years and i just started my first bulking 8 week cycle a week ago. I'm 195lbs and i'm eating 3500 calories a day, give or take. So we'll see what happens. One day i may try the hardcore Dianabol way, hmmmm .... that would be about 5k calories a day. Jesus christ! Lol.

Well anyways ... to keep things simple as the contradictory information doesn't ... a couple posts down says "Basic Diet Plan". I put it together from all the info. i saw on the site about diet and came up with it. It's solid, everyone agrees, and it will make your head stop spinning so much. :)
 
Lance, yes the high calories definately worried me...and i read your post- definately seemed to clear things up.
so by my calculations you're doing 18 times your bw in cals? how is that going for you? What have been your gains and in what period of time?
Im going to start my cycle tommorrow, and ill start off probably at 20cals/lb, unless Dianabol can convince me otherwise before the morning. also, my first week is easier so i can always up the cals for the more intense periods and depending on my body's reaction to that many cals.
Ill be keeping a cycle log on the bodybuilding.com forums, so if youre interested you can check it out over there- im still SolidGK...
Thanks for all the help
Jonathan
 
there's something I don't see incorporated into these equations (and i know they're just a heuristic but still) - the (alleged )fact that someone who is naturally skinny with a high metabolism needs more calories to maintain/grow than somoene who's naturally larger, even if both are at the same weight. I remember reading this in a few places.

How much of a "confounding variable" is this?
 
John,

This is only week 1 so far of bulking. It's also my first HST cycle as well. So far, i feel full ALL the time which is awesome! And i definately feel that some size i've gained so far may just be glycogen that i've never really let fill out before. Anyways, besides this weekend (i'm letting myself eat what i want on the weekends), i've barely gained any fat. Actually, when i started the diet i had just finished 1 week of eating whatever i wanted which i hadn't done in like 6 months, lol. And to tell the truth, at first i seemed to get lean eating this far above. I'm a strong believe that calories matter, but WHAT you eat matters even more. I'm feeling good though, eating is fulfilling, and my body is full.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Lance @ Mar. 21 2004,7:38)]I'm a strong believer that calories matter, but WHAT you eat matters even more.
Click to expand...
I like the sound of that thought, could you elaborate a bit on that Lance?


Thanks,
JWJ
 
Haha thanks. This is only going to come from experience though.

When i took that week off of dieting and training, i was eating whatever i want. Pizza, sugars, etc. Whatever. I also probably was eating lower calories too ... but i still started getting fat and out of shape. Out of shape .. wait ... that was a good SD! Lol.

I can't really expand, i don't know where to go with this. Basically ... you are what you eat. Eat like sh*t you'll look like sh*t. If you want muscle you have to eat muscle. That sorta thing, lol.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Lance @ Mar. 21 2004,10:52)]Haha thanks. This is only going to come from experience though.
When i took that week off of dieting and training, i was eating whatever i want. Pizza, sugars, etc. Whatever. I also probably was eating lower calories too ... but i still started getting fat and out of shape. Out of shape .. wait ... that was a good SD! Lol.
I can't really expand, i don't know where to go with this. Basically ... you are what you eat. Eat like sh*t you'll look like sh*t. If you want muscle you have to eat muscle. That sorta thing, lol.
Click to expand...
You expanded on that that just fine. Thank you. :D

I 100% agree with you that calories are not the end of the story.


JWJ
 
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