Countering Insulin Desensitizers

J

Jon Stark

New Member
Seems like every day I read something about this or that contributing to insulin resistance. Recently I've read warnings by Berardi that caffeine and glucosamine both have this effect -- which is ironic since many people use these things to try to get lean (thermogenesis and leptin-production).

Just wondering if anyone knows whether it's possible to counteract this using sufficient doses of things like ALA. I know Biotest puts ALA in it's MD6 thermogenic for this reason.

If the effects cannot be countered, it would be good to know, so we don't waste money trying.
 
You actually want to be insulin resistant when dieting.
It's only when you're massing (overeating) that insulin resistance (in the muscle cell) gets you into trouble.

I doubt that oral glucosamine is causing insulin resistance, by the way. As I recall, the studies used infused glucosamine. Elzi Volk would know better (she's the GS expert), I'll ask her.

Lyle
 
Anyone else think it is a little fishy that Berardi released this info about a week after Biotest discontinued their caffeine containing thermogenic? Now that they are out of the stimulant market and are releasing a stim free supliment they are just trying to pull customers away from ECA and towards whatever new product they are coming out with.
 
Lyle,

Do you want insulin sensitivity on refeed days; does it matter if you take ECA on those day(s) or would it be advisable to lay off the stimulants?
 
Ryan,  I am definitely not Lyle, but from what I understand, you want to be as insulin sensitive as possible during refeeds.  I personally don't use E/C during refeeds due to the fact that Bryan has said that it is far less effective in the presence of high carbs.  So, I don't like to waste it, and I like to give myself a break from it on the weekends.

Steve
 
Hey all, thanks for the feedback. It pretty clear to me now that I'm clueless about insulin's role in fat loss and muscle hypertrophy. I'm not looking for a magic bullet or anything. I'm sure there are trade-offs when manipulating insulin levels and insulin sensitivity. I just don't even know what those trade-offs are, and I want to remedy that.

Lyle -- or anyone else out there in the know -- can you recommend a good book that discusses insulin's role in bodybuilding?
 
>Do you want insulin sensitivity on refeed days; does it matter if you take ECA on those day(s) or would it be advisable to lay off the stimulants?

It sort of depends, believe it or not. To optimally drive carbs (and other nutrients) into the muscle, you want high muscle insulin sensitivity. Avoiding EC and/or caffeine during refeeds/carb-ups makes sense within that context.

However, to upregulate leptin, you actually want to drive some glucose into fat cells (this ties into the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway being discussed in a different thread).

thing is, I doubt deliberately increasing muscle insulin reisstance is really necessary to get this to occur. that is, even with high musle insulin sensitivity, you should get some spillover of glucose into fat cells, raising leptin.

So, if I had to pin down an answer (and quit being vague), I'd say that avoiding EC/caffeine during a refeed would probably be ideal.

Of course, for longer refeeds, this just means you sleep all day (I do anyhow, caffeine withdrawal is no fun at all) but....

Lyle
 
>Lyle -- or anyone else out there in the know -- can you recommend a good book that discusses insulin's role in bodybuilding?

Are you asking about the effects of insulin in general (i.e. as a hormone) or as an injectable?

I'm assuming the first but can't be sure. I'll go from there.

Most books tend to oversimplify the role of insulin in the body: some say it's the most growth promoting hormone in the body, some say it will just make you fat.

The problem is that they are both right. Insulin's effects are non-tissue specific, it affects muscle, liver and fat cells (and many others). That is, it is a general storage hormone, increasing nutrient storage in the body.

Of course, how a given cell responds to insulin (insulin sensitivity) can vary. In an ideal world, for mass gains, you'd want muscle to be highly insulin sensitive, fat cells insulin resistant. This would make it harder to gain fat as nutrients would preferentially get driven into muscle cells.

Long-term fish oil supplements appear to cause this to some degree (increasing insulin receptor number on muscle cells, decreasing them on fat cells).

When yo'ure dieting, being insulin resistant is actually better. When fat cells are insulin resistant, they give up fatty acids more easily. When muscle cells are insulin resistant, they can't use glucose well which means they have to find another fuel source: fatty acids. This also spares glucose for the brain.

Unfortunately, as you get lean, insulin sensitivity goes up and up and up in both muscle and fat cells. This is part of why it gets harder to mobilize fat as you get leaner. It also means that you tend to gain fat back faster (because fat cells are so insulin sensitive).

Insulin is mainly controlled by carb intake (protein has a small effect, fatty acids have indirect effects by changing cell membrane structure). Chronically high insulin levels (lots of high GI carbs) will cause muscular insulin resistance, which will push calories into fat cells. Chronically low insulin (low carbs) won't allow optimal growth.

Probably the optimal compromise is to stick with moderate amounts of low GI, high fiber carbs at every meal except the ones around workouts (training increases muscle insulin sensitivity), which is where high GI carbs are better. Which is what bodybuilders have been doing for decades.

need to know anything else?

Lyle
 
Long-term fish oil supplements appear to cause this to some degree (increasing insulin receptor number on muscle cells, decreasing them on fat cells)"

How long? 3 months? 3 years? and were talking about 6 g EPA/DHA (not 6g n-3) right?
 
Lyle, thanks for the great info! I really appreciate it. And thanks for visiting this board, too. You've got quite a following over here... in fact I think there's a thread named after you in one of the other forums.

(And your assumption was right, I wasn't planning on injecting insulin. Should have made that clearer.)
 
I am not lyle (to borrow Steve's phrase), but at least for CLA, the experiments (which I know about) for fat loss lasted about 3 - 6 months (using rats and humans). So, I'd assume it would take about 3 - 6 months of continuous intake of CLA to see some result.
 
>I am not lyle (to borrow Steve's phrase), but at least for CLA, the experiments (which I know about) for fat loss lasted about 3 - 6 months (using rats and humans). So, I'd assume it would take about 3 - 6 months of continuous intake of CLA to see some result.

This is probably about right for the time course (it's been a while since I read the studies, and not sure I can find them right now). Generally, rats show far faster turnover than humans, and I use my Lyle McDonald Official Rat Study Correction Factor ™ of "Oh, about 3". So if something takes about a month in a rat, figure it takes about 3 in humans.

The problem is that the rate of fat cell turnover in humans is quite slow (compared to other tissues such as muscle) so interventions like this take a while to show up.

The brain is even worse. For example, one study (that I now can't find) showed that long-term fish oil supplementation in rats increased leptin uptake into the brain, via modulation of the blood brain barrier and the leptin transporter. Took like 20 weeks. Means it'll take like 60 weeks in humans.

But I guess it's a nice trade off for not being a rat.

Also, someone asked about fish oils. Yeah, epa/DHA, 6X1g/day.

Lyle
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (lylemcd @ July 02 2002,7:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, someone asked about fish oils. Yeah, epa/DHA, 6X1g/day.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sorry, just to clarify, does that mean 1g six times a day? If so, why spread it out? For some reason I thought that since it's a fat that taking it in one dose was just as effective.
 
All I mean by 6X1 g/day is that that should be the total dose (6 1 gram capsules). Whether it should be divided up or taken all at once, not sure it matters.

Lyle
 
So if I'm dieting and want to decrease insulin sensitivity, should I do away with the fish oil?  Eat more saturated fat?  Less fiber?  Less volume in cardio/training?  All of these reduce insulin sensitivity, so how far should I take it?

If insulin resistance is good while dieting, than either a keto diet, or a very high carb diet would seem optimal...wouldn't it?
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingProtein @ July 03 2002,9:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So if I'm dieting and want to decrease insulin sensitivity, should I do away with the fish oil?  Eat more saturated fat?  Less fiber?  Less volume in cardio/training?  All of these reduce insulin sensitivity, so how far should I take it?

If insulin resistance is good while dieting, than either a keto diet, or a very high carb diet would seem optimal...wouldn't it?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, realize that, ideally, we need to induce some sort of insulin resistance under low-insulin conditions (b/c insulin always wins the battle when it comes to mobilizing fat).

So a high-carb diet (which induces insulin resistance eventually via chronically high insulin levels) is out.

Removing fiber (which most likely works by slowing gastric emptying and lowering the blood glucose/insulin response anyhow) won't make much of a difference anyhow.

Fish oils and saturated fats are having long-term effects (either through gene expression or changes in cell membrane structure) so you'd have to make those changes for a while to see an effect.

The EC stack induces insulin resistance (two mechanisms: jacking up adrenaline levels which directly antagonize the insulin receptor and raising blood free fatty acid levels which does the same) which is proabbly part of how it works to spare muscle while dieting.

Muscle damage causes insulin resistance after a day or two (about the same time that soreness kicks in). Makes me wonder if that isn't part of the mechanism behind training decreasing muscle loss (on top of the obvious 'sending a metabolic signal to maintain muscle mass&#39;).

Dropping/lowering cardio sort of defeats the purpose becuase then you're also getting less free fatty acid mobilization/burning (both of which also decrease as you get lean).

Unfortunately, an increase in insulin sensitivity as you get leaner is one of the 'normal' adaptations to dieting, and I'm not sure how much it can be affected. It turns out taht most of what you lose during a diet (fat vs. LBM) is determined internally (i.e. by your body), you can only affect things to a limited degree.

Not sure if that helps very much.

Lyle
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (lylemcd @ July 04 2002,10:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not sure if that helps very much.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It helps a lot Lyle, Thanks.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Muscle damage causes insulin resistance after a day or two (about the same time that soreness kicks in). Makes me wonder if that isn't part of the mechanism behind training decreasing muscle loss (on top of the obvious 'sending a metabolic signal to maintain muscle mass'.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Muscle damage causes insulin resistance after a day or two?? That means whatever i eat, much of it doesnt get to the muscle cells?? How does the muscle repair itself without any nutrients this way?? Did i get this right?

===================

On another note, I dont know much about ALA except that it is a nutrients partitoning agent? That is, it preferentially shuttles nutrients into muscle cells? Did i get the whole picture right?

1) My main goal now is muscle building. Can i use ALA for the above mentioned purpose?

2)When do i take it and whats the dosage to be effective?

3) Most importantly, has it been shown to work?
 
&gt;Muscle damage causes insulin resistance after a day or two??
That means whatever i eat, much of it doesnt get to the muscle cells?? How does the muscle repair itself without any nutrientsthis way?? Did i get this right?

No.
a. The insulin resistance isn't complete (i.e. it's not that insulin can't work at all, it just doesn'tw ork as well).
b. most protein synthesis following training is done by 36 hours. The soreness/insulin resistance doesn't kick in until after that so it's a non-issue.

So relax, stress raises cortisol which is bad.

Lyle
 
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