Daily Undulating Periodization

K

Kakelad

New Member
Hello everyone!

I have read through the previous threads touching upon DUP and I have some questions.
What do you people think about mixing the principles of HST and DUP a bit?
For example having three sessions in the week with varying rep ranges and then dropping the rep ranges a bit lower as the weeks progress? Kinda like this:

Main Excercises:
- Squat
- Deadlift
- Bench Press
- Overhead Press
Accessories (lighter weight but higher reps):
-Weighted Pull ups/Cable Row
-Leg press/Leg Extensions
-Weighted Dips
-Some sort of curls etc.

Monday - Heavy 3x5

Wednesday - Moderate 3x8

Friday - Volume 2x10-15


The weights would keep intensifying as in HST and the rep amount dropping every 2 weeks.
Then after 6-8 weeks a reset/deload/strategic deconditioning period.

Here is an good article on the matter: http://www.strengtheory.com/in-defense-of-program-hoppers-dup-revisited/

I would highly appreciate any thoughts!
Thank you!
 
Several studies have indicated that DUP is more productive than linear periodization. However, I do not believe that enough testing has been done to state that as a fact. However, I have been using DUP along with HST for the past year and find it seems to be better than 2 weeks of each rep range. If nothing else, it helps with the boredom factor and probably lessens the likelihood of RBE. Give it a whirl and see what you think.
 
Old and Grey said:
Several studies have indicated that DUP is more productive than linear periodization. However, I do not believe that enough testing has been done to state that as a fact. However, I have been using DUP along with HST for the past year and find it seems to be better than 2 weeks of each rep range. If nothing else, it helps with the boredom factor and probably lessens the likelihood of RBE. Give it a whirl and see what you think.
Click to expand...

I will be doing HST with DUP next cycle, just posted proposed routine in my training log!! - http://thinkmuscle.com/community/threads/mickc1965-training-log.42222/
 
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What percentages do you plan on using for those rep ranges?

A side point, in the DUP setup I am using I have a volume day (4x8@70%), power day (5x1@80%), strength day (3xamrap@85%) in this order and progressing in each lift weekly 5lbs. When I first started the 5x1 really confused me, it was so easy, as time went by my body came to really appreciate at the day where I can work on mobility, form and explosiveness. This leaves me with two intense days (volume and strength) and and an easier day. With your setup you don't have a breather but you also don't leverage an amrap day either. So if your weekly recovery can handle 3 high intensity days then you should be fine. If not you could consider increasing another day's intensity and lowering a different day's.
 
mickc1965 said:
I will be doing HST with DUP next cycle, just posted proposed routine in my training log!! - http://thinkmuscle.com/community/threads/mickc1965-training-log.42222/
Click to expand...

DUP and HST don't go together. Part of HST is not exposing the tissue to higher loads other than by linear progression. i.e if you're on day 3 of the 15s, and you have to chin ups for a team sports fitness test (or whatever), then you probably just invalidated the rest of the 15s and 10s unless you're already particularly strong.

That isn't to say DUP is bad, just that they don't go together. If you're doing DUP, you aren't doing HST.

adpowah said:
What percentages do you plan on using for those rep ranges?

A side point, in the DUP setup I am using I have a volume day (4x8@70%), power day (5x1@80%), strength day (3xamrap@85%) in this order and progressing in each lift weekly 5lbs. When I first started the 5x1 really confused me, it was so easy, as time went by my body came to really appreciate at the day where I can work on mobility, form and explosiveness. This leaves me with two intense days (volume and strength) and and an easier day. With your setup you don't have a breather but you also don't leverage an amrap day either. So if your weekly recovery can handle 3 high intensity days then you should be fine. If not you could consider increasing another day's intensity and lowering a different day's.
Click to expand...

I like this general set up and use a similar style, though some definite differences.
 
Jester said:
DUP and HST don't go together. Part of HST is not exposing the tissue to higher loads other than by linear progression
Click to expand...

But you do if you follow Vanilla HST, in both weeks 3 and 5 you are lifting lighter loads (and for less reps per set) than the loads used to finish weeks 2 and 4, is DUP not just zig zagging more often? the start and the end weights are the same (well at least in my set up they would be) just a different method of getting there.
 
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mickc1965 said:
But you do if you follow Vanilla HST, in both weeks 3 and 5 you are lifting lighter loads that the loads used to finish weeks 2 and 4, is DUP not just zig zagging more often? the start and the end weights are the same (well at least in my set up they would be) just a different method of getting there.
Click to expand...

For clarification my set up will be as follows (% are of projected 1rm), all sets clustered to RPE 8 or 9

Week 1 - Days 1 & 2 @ 55% (40-45 reps) / Days 3 & 4 @ 65% (31-35 reps) / Days 5 & 6 @ 75% (22-25 reps)
Week 2 - Days 1 & 2 @ 57.5% (38-43 reps) / Days 3 & 4 @ 67.5% (29-33 reps) / Days 5 & 6 @ 77.5% (20-23 reps)
Week 3 - Days 1 & 2 @ 60% (36-40 reps) / Days 3 & 4 @ 70% (27-30 reps) / Days 5 & 6 @ 80% (18-20 reps)
Week 4 - Days 1 & 2 @ 62.5% (33-38 reps) / Days 3 & 4 @ 72.5% (24-28 reps) / Days 5 & 6 @ 82.5% (15-18 reps)
Week 5 - Days 1 & 2 @ 65% (31-35 reps) / Days 3 & 4 @ 75% (22-25 reps) / Days 5 & 6 @ 85% (13-15 reps)
Week 6 - Days 1 & 2 @ 67.5% (29-33 reps) / Days 3 & 4 @ 77.5% (20-23 reps) / Days 5 & 6 @ 87.5% (11-13 reps)
 
Bryan has stated that his sample programs of using 2 week blocks is merely for simplicity and easier for people to comprehend although it may not be ideal. I am not sure which principle of HST DUP supposedly violates:

Frequency
Mechanical Load
Progression
Strategic Deconditioning

If I had to guess, I would guess that some people may think that progression under HST has to be linear with each workout. That is not the case. Linearity applies to within rep ranges and not as to how rep ranges are applied. Taking this to the extreme, one would have to conclude that "zig-zagging" violates the progression principle, which it may, but Bryan considers it as an acceptable variation.

Of course, you can certainly design many programs using DUP that do violate the HST principles in some manner but you can also design programs that use DUP that do not violate HST principles.

In either case, one should experiment and find what works best for themselves no matter what name is arbitrarily assigned to it. Whatever you call it will not help you build more muscle.
 
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mickc1965 said:
But you do if you follow Vanilla HST, in both weeks 3 and 5 you are lifting lighter loads (and for less reps per set) than the loads used to finish weeks 2 and 4, is DUP not just zig zagging more often? the start and the end weights are the same (well at least in my set up they would be) just a different method of getting there.
Click to expand...

DUP will invalidate the benefits (or largely invalidate) of SD (assuming you subscribe to the hypothesis).

Training 5's or 8's is going to largely invalidate any work you would do at 12, or 15 etc. in terms of hypertrophy - again, assuming you subscribe to the underlying scientific premise of HST.

Minor zig-zag? Largely irrelevant. Chronic zig-zag ala DUP? Not something HST's hypothesis allows. For all the talk of 'principles', HST is still a specified system.

It is probably worth adding the caveat that the physiology of anyone on chemical assistance or TRT (ala the T-levels of 25 or 30 yr old at 40,50,60,70 yrs old) is not really within the bounds of the discussion. This isn't meant as a shot at O&G, but it is reality.


As O&G said; calling the progrm 'DUP HST' won't make it more effective. People have the need to apply the HST label to their program, which is admirable but misdirected. If the most effective training you perform is not one that could be genuinely categorised as HST, then that's 'OK'.
 
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