Eccentric Workout Transitions

OgreRaging

New Member
Hey guys,

I'm about to start the 4th cycle (weeks 7 and 8) of my first HST training routine, and so far, so good. Just finished my 5 rep cycle, and I'm thinking I want to make the 4th and final cycle an eccentric cycle.

Given that eccentrics (I believe these are also called negatives) work your muscles in a noticeably different way, if I intend to keep the rep count at 5 per set, any guidelines on how I should adjust the max weights? 90% of my previous 5 rep cycle maxes? I'd like to believe that my muscles are so macho they could handle the same weights I used for this most recent 3rd cycle, but I have a feeling they arent there just yet, hehe.

Any and all input / pointers would be great.

Thanks, yall.
 
OgreRaging,

The point of an HST cycle is that the loads are incremented throughout to constantly keep the response to mechanical strain ahead of RBE. If you decide to do eccentrics for the final 2 week mesocycle (often referred to as post-5s) then you will need to increase the loads above your 5RM loads. A good place to start the post 5s would be to try using loads around your 3RM.

Do be careful with eccentrics. It is very easy to get over confident and load the bar with more weight than is required to create a novel stimulus. If you can't maintain good form you are much more likely to injure yourself which really does defeat the purpose of the final two weeks of the cycle.

My advice would be to try eccentrics for dips and chins as these are very easy to set up; see how you get on with them first. Other exercises usually require at least one extra pair of helping hands. Assisted negatives are an option for some exercises (where you use two limbs to raise a load and then lower with one).

You could also continue to use your 5RM loads for the final two weeks but switch to triples to help control fatigue accumulation. Instead of 3 sets of 5 reps you could try 5 sets of 3 reps. If you feel able to increment the loads again for the final week without compromising form then all well and good.

After you complete your heavy sets across, don't forget to lower the load and perform a high-rep set (~15 reps) for each of your exercises to add in some metabolic work which will help maintain muscle glycogen and keep you feeling fuller.
 
Lol,

Thank you for the very thorough and thoughtful responses - I really appreciate them. I'll respond to your answers with some follow up questions:

The point of an HST cycle is that the loads are incremented throughout to constantly keep the response to mechanical strain ahead of RBE. If you decide to do eccentrics for the final 2 week mesocycle (often referred to as post-5s) then you will need to increase the loads above your 5RM loads. A good place to start the post 5s would be to try using loads around your 3RM.

If before this first HST routine I only established my 15, 10, and 5 rep maxes, should I try to guesstimate my 3RM (maybe adding 5-20 pounds to a given exercise depending on the muscle involved, previous challenge, etc.)?

Do be careful with eccentrics. It is very easy to get over confident and load the bar with more weight than is required to create a novel stimulus. If you can't maintain good form you are much more likely to injure yourself which really does defeat the purpose of the final two weeks of the cycle.

To be honest, I have little to no experience with eccentrics, and based on your (quite likely sage) advice, I'm considering backing off and instead for the fourth mesocycle / post 5s sticking with 5 reps but with increased max weights. Along those lines, because eccentrics sound like a good way to keep my muscles challenged, do you know of any places/sites where I can learn about eccentric form / correct methodology? If there are other threads on HST that I should read about, my apologies for not having seen them yet, and would be glad to check them out.

My advice would be to try eccentrics for dips and chins as these are very easy to set up; see how you get on with them first. Other exercises usually require at least one extra pair of helping hands. Assisted negatives are an option for some exercises (where you use two limbs to raise a load and then lower with one).

At the moment, this is what my "set list" looks like:

Squat - BarBell(1x)
Deadlift - BB (2x)
Incline Benchpress - BB (2x)
Decline Benchpress - BB (1x)
Chin Pulldown Wide - Cable (2x)
Horizontal Row Narrow - C (2x)
Lat (Side) Raise - C (1x)
Lat Raise - DumbBell (1x)
Front Raise - DB (2x)
Shoulder Press - DB (2x)
Rear Delt - Machine (2x)
Bicep Curl - DB (2x)
Lying Tricep Extension - DB (2x)
Calf Raise - M (2x)
Leg Extension - M (2x)
Abs - M (2x)


My set list is fairly vanilla, as I wanted to ease into HST in order to avoid injury. I've added in some shoulder sets as it is the muscle group for which I have the most difficulty achieving noticeable gains in terms of both size and strength. I dropped dips from the introductory workout as they tend to place a lot of strain on my shoulders/rotator cuffs and my sternum - are there good alternatives to dips that you like and are a bit easier on those areas? I'll do some research on assisted negatives to learn more about what you mentioned.

You could also continue to use your 5RM loads for the final two weeks but switch to triples to help control fatigue accumulation. Instead of 3 sets of 5 reps you could try 5 sets of 3 reps. If you feel able to increment the loads again for the final week without compromising form then all well and good.

Triples - are they called that because of the 5/3 3/5 switch? Or is it merely based upon the reversal of set and rep counts? As I'm not doing three sets of any given exercise, I'm curious as to how you would modify those sets/reps.

After you complete your heavy sets across, don't forget to lower the load and perform a high-rep set (~15 reps) for each of your exercises to add in some metabolic work which will help maintain muscle glycogen and keep you feeling fuller.

High rep sets - should these be done after all mesocycle weeks? They're already being done de facto during the first mesocycle, but should they also be included during the second mesocycle (10 reps for me this time)?

Thats all I have for now. Thanks again for your time.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the very thorough and thoughtful responses - I really appreciate them. I'll respond to your answers with some follow up questions:
No probs.

If before this first HST routine I only established my 15, 10, and 5 rep maxes, should I try to guesstimate my 3RM (maybe adding 5-20 pounds to a given exercise depending on the muscle involved, previous challenge, etc.)?
Just try an extra increment on any exercises you plan to use for eccentrics. So if you've been adding 10lb per session, add a further 10lb more than the last session you did for 5s. If it doesn't feel challenging enough, increment the load again the next session.

To be honest, I have little to no experience with eccentrics, and based on your (quite likely sage) advice, I'm considering backing off and instead for the fourth mesocycle / post 5s sticking with 5 reps but with increased max weights. Along those lines, because eccentrics sound like a good way to keep my muscles challenged, do you know of any places/sites where I can learn about eccentric form / correct methodology? If there are other threads on HST that I should read about, my apologies for not having seen them yet, and would be glad to check them out.

Here's a link to a bit of info on negs found in the FAQs: http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12704-Negatives-eccentrics.

If you are going to stick with regular reps then I do think it's a good move to switch to triples (sets of 3 reps). The reason I mentioned 5 sets of 3 is because most folks end up doing 3 sets of 5 during 5s. Switching to 5 triples with your 5RM allows for the same rep total but reduces fatigue accumulation.

My set list is fairly vanilla, as I wanted to ease into HST in order to avoid injury. I've added in some shoulder sets as it is the muscle group for which I have the most difficulty achieving noticeable gains in terms of both size and strength. I dropped dips from the introductory workout as they tend to place a lot of strain on my shoulders/rotator cuffs and my sternum - are there good alternatives to dips that you like and are a bit easier on those areas? I'll do some research on assisted negatives to learn more about what you mentioned.
Have you tried reducing your ROM for dips? They really are a very effective compound movement but it is fairly easy to go deeper than necessary in order for the movement to be effective.

Triples - are they called that because of the 5/3 3/5 switch? Or is it merely based upon the reversal of set and rep counts? As I'm not doing three sets of any given exercise, I'm curious as to how you would modify those sets/reps.
See answer above.

High rep sets - should these be done after all mesocycle weeks? They're already being done de facto during the first mesocycle, but should they also be included during the second mesocycle (10 reps for me this time)?
It is only necessary to add high-rep, 'metabolic stress' sets during the low-rep phase of the cycle, ie. during 5s and post-5s. This is so that you can continue to activate the metabolic strain pathway (ERK1/2) during a phase which would otherwise be primarily focussed on activation of the mechanical strain pathway (p38). So, once you've mechanically strained the tissue enough, you then need to go after a 'burn' in the same tissue using a lighter load - light enough that you can get a good burn but not so light that you can recover and it becomes an aerobic exercise.

Always do your heavy work sets first and then finish up with a 'burn' set. I would tend to do a 10-15 rep set with a reduction in load of about 25%. That might be something close to the loads you used at the beginning of 15s. (Folks here used to do drop sets, where you finish your last heavy work set and then quickly drop the load a bit and carry on repping out.) Whether you do a regular high-rep set or a drop set, the most important thing is to go after the burn for all the funky, metabolic by-product goodness!

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12706-Dropsets-and-high-rep-sets
 
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