Gaining too much weight

[Alek]

Ok since I've never done an HST cycle before, I wonder how is it that you people know how much muscle you're gaining? Where do you make the distinction to water? I really want to know as I have never done an HST bulking cycle before. And my weight rose 9 pounds in 2.5 weeks. Here's the timetable.
-| 14, april (195.6lbs) [following a cutting cycle]
-| doing a week of maintenance
-| 24, april (198.4lbs) [obviosly an expected jump since its after a period of cutting]
-| doing bulking averaging some 300 kcal above maintenance
-| 5, may (204.6lbs) !?!?!
Obviosly the bulking cycle is not just water jumping since its following a decent maintenance period. Should I be freaking out here? Am I getting fat, is it muscle?! Or what's this all about?

 

[Dood]

Look in the mirror?

 

[Alek]

The mirror says i'm fatter (bloated). But it did that back when I was 198.4. Now I'm 204.6 and look the exact same.
But I just did a caliper measurement and the skinfolds are exactly the same. I couldn't manage to measure a higher skinfold no matter how much I tried.

Couldn't be muscle, could it!?

 

[Nemesis7884]

can...

skinfold measurements are not always exaclty (in fact hardly ever)

in the end the mirror decides...if you are insecure you could ask someon that knows you very well, sometimes our own eyes play tricks with us...

have you also become stronger during the time or not?

if you just started weight lifting or had not had any improvements before this could be...but would be really exceptional...

well, i gained aournd 20 pounds during my 1 hst cycle (in fact no fat - i even droped body fat lvl) and i had been lifting for 4 years

 

[McDee]

I'd be tempted to say yes it could be muscle. I am almost finished my 1st cycle of HST and I went from about 160lbs to 174lbs in 6 weeks with the same level of bodyfat, even though I ate everything in sight my abs are more visible than before.

I'm pretty sure I made muscle gains because before I started HST my 1RM for bench press was a sad 160lbs and a few days ago I was doing 190lbs for negatives and I lifted it VERY easy, I actually threw it up. I am sure I could do 220lbs or so now! Same goes for every exercise I have in my program.

 

[Alek]

Nemesis, thank you for the advice. Very usefull!  

Sister says "Yeah, but in the face especially alot"
Mirror says "you look fatter, but it looks like bloating"

Would it be better to keep everything as it is 2 more weeks (at 4 week mark) and then recalibrate or
- add cardio
- lower calories
I have been training for 4 years now and always been in a continual semi-cutting mode. This be my first real bulk
Oh and nemesis... 20 pounds in one cycle...

 

 

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]Couldn't be muscle, could it!?

Could be bloat, possibly. If so, you can down a tablespoon or two of apple cider vinegar before your big carb meals. There's a good thread on this over in the nutrition section. My mum actually downs a few tablespoons of vinegar every morning, per her doctor's orders, before breakfast. It tastes pretty good; but, then again, I drink tabassco sauce like water.

Possibly increase fiber intake through food sources. Are your bowel movements regular and, erm, satisfying?

It's unlikely it's fat since you're only 300 calories over. At the very worst, you're looking at a 2lbs increase in fat, which obviously wouldn't explain the sudden increase in weight. Now, quite a bit of that would be an increase in water (though that's basically true with most success stories that you see, regardless or program.)

Again, it sounds like to me that you're just bloating.

 

[McDee]

another noob question, what is bloat exactly?

 

[imported_gripstrength]

I recently read that the proportion of fat to muscle gained during a bulk tends to be about 50/50. Of course that's going to vary among trainees, and there's surely some water gain during a bulk as well--but I think it's in the neighborhood of somewhat accurate.

Are you sure you're counting calories correctly? If your sister is seeing something more around your face (that's where I show weight gain, too) it implies that at least some of your gain is fat. You're probably putting on some muscle too, though. You might adjust your calories downward and see what happens.

I understand your anxiety about this. As an ex-fattie, I only recently accepted that one has to do a bulk to gain significant muscle, and that some fat gain is probably inevitable.

 

[Alek]

Vicious... I do have plenty of fiber (too much even

) but I did get lazy and eat alot of high-glycemic carbs

White bread etc... Would this have the same effect?
I will cut down calories to 3000 (from 3200). But change nothing for 2-3 more weeks
Oh and gripstrength... How do you deal with the anxiety? Coz thats exactly what it was for me. I almost freaked out and launched myself into a starve-fest after posting the thread. Like some anorexic teen girl crying "oh no I'm faaaaat"
Yours truly,
A fellow ex-fattie

P.S.

 

[vicious]

I have to think most of it really is just bloated stomach. I know I feel that way sometimes.

Quote[/b] ]I recently read that the proportion of fat to muscle gained during a bulk tends to be about 50/50.

I think that's true for most people because they haven't yet learned how to bulk properly for their body and metabolism. No equation can teach you that really, it's just something that has to be learned through trial and error. The hardest part is to convince most people they may need to eat an enormous amount of food in order to gain.

That being said, I think keys to a "smart bulk" pretty much apply to everybody --

1) Eat more on days you work out. Eat less on days that you don't.

2) On WO days, emphasize your carb intake after your workout. Carbs are important on your WO days.

My own ideas for a "smart bulk"

3) If your metabolism is bad, add a short cardio session post-workout and/or in the morning. It won't eat up your gains if you're smart with your pre/post-WO nutrition (i.e. shove your carbs around this time), but it'll do wonders for gaining without getting fat. If it's HIIT, be mindful of RBE and CNS fatigue. If it's steady state, you probably don't need to go beyond half an hour or so.

4) Add in a burn set during 5s to boost the metabolic signal for non-cardio muscles .

5) Rework your protein:carb ratio, at least, on your non-WO days. Protein doesn't get metabolized as easily as carbs or fat, thus excess calories as protein carries less risk around the gut. I favor a Max-OT/DC-ish style diet anyway, as long as you're good and aggressive about post-WO carb intake. Those with high metabolism (such as teenagers), should probably eat more carbs than what either diet suggests. Then again, they don't need to bulk "smart."

cheers,
Jules

 

[Alek]

Awesome post Jules! I am saving this in a document on my desktop for the following HST weeks. I have noticed that many times you emphasize the importance of pre/post WO nutrition. Please post a link to an article/forum post you find really does a good job of explaing this.

Thanks for all the help

P.S.
Congrats on the promotion. Obviosly well deserved

 

[imported_gripstrength]

Those are good tips, Vicious. The info about timing your carb consumption intelligently is especially useful. I also plan to start doing some burn sets when I start my next cycle of fives.

Alek, it's weird, isn't it? Wanting to put on size but fearing putting on weight...the wrong kind of weight, anyway.

I used to believe you could improve your distribution of fat and muscle while eating at or below maintenance until I read an article of Bryan's that stated that wasn't possible. Then I started consuming more calories (in the form of carbs--I was a low-carber before), and sure enough, I made measurable gains in muscular size immediately thereafter. Seeing and feeling the positive results has helped allay some of the "I'm getting faaaat!" anxiety, but I'm still deprogramming my old way of thinking.

Another thing that helps control the anxiety factor is not stepping on the scale (I've got one of those Tanita dealies) as often as I used to. My weight has crept up, and though some of it is muscle, my bodyfat has gone up a bit, too. I tell myself that a little fat gain is a worthwhile price to pay to achieve muscular gains, especially if I can subsequently lose most of the fat and keep most of the muscle. As long as my pants fit OK, I'm not flipping out. And like Vicious says, I figure I'll get better at bulking as I learn through trial and (hopefuly minimal) error.

I'm only going to do this bulk for the remainder of this HST cycle, and then I'm going to cut during my next cycle. Having a plan in place also helps keep the anxiety in check.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]I have noticed that many times you emphasize the importance of pre/post WO nutrition

Bryan's article on pre/post WO nutrition is the gold standard around these parts. And it seems adding that tablespoon or two of apple cider vinegar makes it more effective. If you do the cardio, be sure to be plenty generous with the carb intake.

Ideally, you'll see a 3:1 lbm:fat gain. If you gain 4lbs LBM on a cycle and 1.3lbs of fat, I think that deal is worth it.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Alek]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ May 06 2005,6:09)]

Quote[/b] ]I have noticed that many times you emphasize the importance of pre/post WO nutrition

Bryan's article on pre/post WO nutrition is the gold standard around these parts. And it seems adding that tablespoon or two of apple cider vinegar makes it more effective. If you do the cardio, be sure to be plenty generous with the carb intake.
Ideally, you'll see a 3:1 lbm:fat gain. If you gain 4lbs LBM on a cycle and 1.3lbs of fat, I think that deal is worth it.
cheers,
Jules

Oh yeah... I did forget to mention the most important thing. I applied your apple vinegar suggestion immediately. I am not sure, but it seems there is already a positive effect (less bloated today). So if anyone is pondering this, I think its definetely worth trying. Will tell more as I continue the practice.

Generous carb intake = meaning throughout the day, or around the cardio?

 

[vicious]

You can thank Biz and the Avant cats for the vinegar idea.  I've read about the "Wonders of Apple Cider Vinegar" in a natural health book some years ago (and my mum takes in cider vinegar everyday before breakfast.)  Honestly didn't cross my mind until Biz brought it up.  I'm probably going to buy it this weekend for myself too.  I'm a tabasco addict, so a little vinegar is fine for me.

Quote[/b] ]Generous carb intake = meaning throughout the day, or around the cardio?

Very generous around the cardio, normal overall throughout the day.  For example, say you're 3000 calories with a 50% carb intake.  That's 1500 calories of carbs.  Assuming you're 200lbs, you would shoot for 140g carbs right after cardio, and 80g carbs 2-3 hours after that.  You distribute the 155g for the rest of the day.

That being said, I wonder if the real issue is just the bloat.  3000 calories for a 200lbs guy sounds a bit low to me; many people at 200lbs can cut with that.  The cardio may hurt your gains at that level.

 

[Bob Evans]

So what does Apple Cider Vinegardo? I don't have the book

Bob

 

[vicious]

In health food circles, cider vinegar is supposed to be one of those miracle detox diet product thingies. Meh. It's easily available at your local supermarket nowadays.

Cider vinegar is not such a bad thing for basting ribs while smoking them. Some people like to use just cider, but I think the vinegar helps promote bark when you're making pulled pork or brisket. And there's a bit of a nice tang that cuts through the fat and gives structure to the smokiness. You just don't want to overdo it, though, otherwise the bark turns into a gritty, mushy flavor. Actually, I thought using a cider brine instead to baste my ribs, my thinking being that the salty solution would promote more juiceness in the meat.

There's a good thread on vinegar over in the Nutrition section. I never really thought about it, because I eat a lot of citrus and pour hot sauce on my bland chicken breasts. The vinegar is supposed to enhance glycogen supercompensation with the carbs as well as keep down the bloated feeling.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Alek]

Dang... This HST thing is definetely doing something. Most definetely. Atleast some (a big portion) of this is muscle. Today I went and flexed infront of the mirror. dang!!!! My arms must have gone up atleast 1.5 inches. HST rules