more ?s on oil

tai4ji2x

New Member
yeesh, finding good oils to fry with these days is tough. oils specifically-labelled as "extra virgin" or "unrefined" are darned expensive!

does the whole refining process (which is described by udo erasmus) damage even the monounsaturated oils? vicious/jules suggested one option is to switch to olive oil, but extra virgin is NOT for frying and the mild olive oils are processed.

peanut oil (in chinatown - and thus probably still a processed oil), by the way, is about the same price as mild olive oil, but its monounsaturated:polyunsaturated ratio is quite a bit less. it's about 6:5. (this is the case even with the expensive unrefined versions at a health food store.) is this good enough? olive is i think nearly 4:1. we could switch to some tropicals, but cost is again an issue, and that moves us back to saturated fats. we might just have to change our cooking methods?
butbut.gif
not sure if the rest of the family would care to do that though. butter is a possibility for our non-chinese foods. we'd all prefer not to go back to lard either. (and since we usually eat vegetarian, that's not really an option either)

which brings us back to udo erasmus... i've done some searching on the net and much of the talk against refined oils seems to all point back to him. not to discount him at all, but are there any other authorities which do not have a conflict of interest (since erasmus sells his own line of oil blends)?
 
hmm... the wholefoods market sells an organic non-GMO canola that is supposedly free of chemical and solvent processing. not cheap, but not as expensive as the olive, sesame and peanut. what do people think about that?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]does the whole refining process (which is described by udo erasmus) damage even the monounsaturated oils?
Not all oils are processed the same way as mentioned by udo (he is a nut on occasions).

See this list
Olive oil quality grades.

Ø Extra Virgin: From the first pressing of olives using cold-press techniques that do not alter the chemical nature of the oil through heat or solvents, and containing only 1% of free fatty acids (acidity), mostly oleic; otherwise perfectly natural and untreated. (see our oil features for more information).

Ø Fine Virgin: Also a first-pressing oil, but slightly more acidic, between 1% and 2%.

Ø Virgin: Processed using mechanical means (pressure) only and without any added heating which would change the oil; it contains an acidity level of 1 to 5%; often late-season or overripe olives are used.

Ø Ordinary (or Semi-fine) Virgin: First-pressed oil, up to 3.3% acidity.

Ø Pure: Usually a blend of refined olive oil (treated with steam and chemicals) and extra virgin, with a 3.1 to 4% acidity.

Ø Refined: This means the oil is extracted during a second pressing using chemicals, often lye or hexane; these oils are often blended with virgin oils for consumption and labeled “olive oil”. Is the olive oil obtained from olive oils that not fit for consumption as it is, further by refining methods which do not lead to alterations in the initial glyceridic structure, based on precipitating excess acidity and deodorization.

Ø Pomace: This is the lowest-grade made from the pulp of the first and second pressings with 5 to 10% virgin olive oil added for flavor; usually the oil is extracted with solvents.

Look for "cold pressed" oil. But unfortunately most oils that are refined will not say refined oil.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]which brings us back to udo erasmus
I know that there are several people on the web who rate udo as the "king of fats" or whatever and he was the first to bring the information about fats to the attention of the world. But the truth is he is a book writer. He is not the world authority on fats and oils. People have known about the health of fats for years, even the essentail fatty acids have been chemically known since around the 1950s, and their health effects have been known for years. its only in the past 20years research has really picked up because of new techniques and the like, but thats normal science. I do have his book, and it is quite interesting, but he makes some gross assumptions in it.
I havent got some of my reference books with me, but from memory talking with my head of department (do a pubmed search for 'Mann J') was commenting on pieces of it for a while. He doesnt like most generic shop brands, he prefers olive oil, or peanut or sesame seed. But oil isnt used to cook at lot, mainly roasting or boiling. The interesnting fact, is hte Nutrition Dept had done some research on the effect of deepfrying on oil quality (trans isomers etc). I dont know if it had been published, but the oil (olive I think) could go through several sessions of deepfrying before trans got to a significant level.
But now I am just babbling.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]not cheap, but not as expensive as the olive, sesame and peanut. what do people think about that?
As good as any.
 
The issue on which fat is better and why takes the "butter vs margarine" debate to the next level.
Olive oil has been proven to decrease fibrinogen levels (which is a good thing in preventing inflammation of the heart), and is also a good source of natural vitamin E and phytosterols, all of which make olive oil an excellent source of dietary fat. But with its numerous categories, ascertaining quality can be confusing. The comprehensive post by Aaron_F is useful in shedding light on this matter.
What do we know about fat? If the words "Trans fat" or "hydrogenated fat" appear on your food label, then these foods are to be avoided like the plague. Also, heat damage to fat (and to protein and carbs.... recall the recent acrylamide scare) can render the fat quite toxic. For this reason the use of wet-heat cooking methods (e.g. boiling and steaming and its derivatives like poaching, stewing etc) are preferred over dry-heat methods like roasting, grilling and oil-frying owing to the higher risk of heat damage in foods when cooked with dry-heat methods.
Butter, good old butter, from a "raising blood lipid" perspective is supposed to be the healthiest amongst the lot if you consider this rather recent piece of news:
J. Nutr. 132:3642-3649, December 2002
Human Nutrition and Metabolism
Butter Differs from Olive Oil and Sunflower Oil in Its Effects on Postprandial Lipemia and Triacylglycerol-Rich Lipoproteins after Single Mixed Meals in Healthy Young Men1
Nadia Mekki*, Monique Charbonnier*, Patrick Borel, Jeannie Leonardi*, Christine Juhel*, Henri Portugal** and Denis Lairon*2
* Unité 476-Institut National de la Santé et de la Recherche Médicale, Human Nutrition and Lipids, National Institute of Health and Medical Research, Université de la Méditerranée, 13009 Marseille, France Unité Vitamines-Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique, Clermont-Ferrand, France ** Laboratoire Central d’Analyses, Hôpital Ste Marguerite, Marseille, France
2To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: [email protected].
Accumulation of postprandial triacylglycerol-rich lipoproteins is generated by assimilation of ingested dietary fat and has been increasingly related to atherogenic risk. Nevertheless, the influence of different kinds of dietary fatty acids on postprandial lipid metabolism is not well established, except for (n-3) polyunsaturated long-chain fatty acids. Our goal was to evaluate the effects of test meals containing a common edible fat source of saturated (butter), monounsaturated (olive oil) or (n-6) polyunsaturated (sunflower oil) fatty acids on postprandial lipid and triacylglycerol-rich lipoprotein responses. After a 12-h fast, 10 healthy young men ingested mixed meals containing 0 g (control) or 40 g fat, provided as butter, olive oil or sunflower oil in a random order. Fasting and postmeal blood samples were collected for 7 h. The no-fat test meal did not elicit any change over baseline except for plasma phospholipids, insulin and nonesterified fatty acids. Conversely, the three fat-containing meals elicited bell-shaped postprandial changes (P < 0.05) in serum triacylglycerols, free and esterified cholesterol, and nonesterified fatty acids. The butter meal induced a lower postprandial rise of triacylglycerols in serum and chylomicrons (incremental AUC, mmol·h/L: 0.72) than the two unsaturated oils (olive oil: 1.6, sunflower oil: 1.8), which did not differ. Circulating chylomicrons were smaller after the butter meal than after the two vegetable oil meals. The in vitro susceptibility of circulating chylomicrons to hydrolysis by postheparin plasma was higher after sunflower oil than after butter or olive oil. We conclude that butter results in lower postprandial lipemia and chylomicron accumulation in the circulation of young men than olive or sunflower oils after consumption of a single mixed meal.
Perhaps, data based on 10 healthy young (French?) men might not be applicable to other populations, that by and large, tend to be very obesed and large... but this study is a start to many, I hope, about the virtues of fat and which fat to use and for what reasons.
And according to little snippets here and there, butter is a healthy oil for cooking since its degree of saturation makes it the least susceptible to heat damage (Anyone want to verify this? I've also read that macademia oil has a rather high smoking point exceeding that of butter by quite far...)?
Thus, my use of butter when frying eggs, meat etc and even then on the lowest heat-setting possible. Lower heat cooking still will get your food cooked but with less heat damage and protein denaturation, perhaps.
To further exalt good old butter (I don't own shares in the dairy industry, by the way...), saturated fat is purported to increase testosterone levels (and other hormone levels too). Mainstream media says that this is a bad thing but my opinion is that conversion of testosterone to DHT is the bad thing. Furthermore, increasing dietary fat to increase natural hormone levels will only occur if your fat intake was low to the point that hormone production was compromised. If you hormone levels are already healthy, taking any extra fat will not push your hormone levels to supraphysiological levels. But, since butter came out number one in terms of postprandial triacylglycerol-rich lipoproteins generation, how then can it "clog-up" my arteries? Or perhaps, how can butter be any worse than say, olive oil, or whatever vegetable oil that is purportedly, superior to butter in terms of artery-clogging ability?
Personally, butter and extra-virgin, cold-pressed olive oil are my main sources of dietary fat. Also, if you can, the use of mayonnaise (the real thing made from blending egg yolk with olive oil and not the low-fat scourge on many a supermarket shelf....) also is an excellent source of fat. To top it off, I take fish oil in capsules (try to get these certified free of heavy metals, PCBs and all such contaminants) and believe you me, I've never felt better my whole life.
Take note though, my daily use of antioxidants - both fat and water soluble types. I dare say that with judicious use of antioxidants, one's body would be much better able to tolerate all sorts of insidious poisoning (e.g. smog, car fumes, heat-damaged food, just to name a few...) in addition to the ills and spills of being an obligative aerobe.
Awaiting any and all feedback.
Godspeed, and happing HSTing.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (tai4ji2x @ Dec. 31 2002,2:23)].... but extra virgin is NOT for frying and the mild olive oils are processed.
I live on extra virgin olive oil, but do you mean to say that you shouldn't cook with EV-olive oil?
 
Greetings Camelia.

Yes, I wouldn't cook with olive oil. I'd drink it straight or use it for salads. I'd cook with butter though... :D

Bon appetito, and happy HSTing.
 
Can I ask why you wouldn't cook with it. I remember there was a debate about cooking with olive oil or not, and there were some studies (I think from memory) showing it made no difference to the constitition of the oil.
 
Olive oil is supposed to have a low-smoking point. And due to it's monounsaturated nature, even if heated below smoking point, it still can undergo heat-damage.
I suppose this is mediated by its vitamin E content and if you add the oil to soup/stock/food that is already in the pan.
I cook with olive oil at times, especially when the recipe calls for it because authenticity of the dish can take precedence over other concerns :D
Butter's saturated nature makes it more stable and thus less likely to undergo chemical change. Butter does burn though, if you leave it on a high heat setting so even with butter, as with all other oils, do not heat it to smoking point and where possible, use a lower heat setting as opposed to a higher one to further decrease the risk of heat-damage.
 
Avoiding trans fats. . .

A friend of mine chose to avoid trans fats, but he found it a chore to read labels. . . and hydrogenated oil sounded downright innocuous compared to some of the chemical names he saw on the labels (even though some were good for him.) To help him keep over any mental hurdles, he learned to replace "hydrogenated __" with a common name for the same -- "soap."

Now he enjoys reading the label, and not eating anything that contains soap.
 
Just another question in regards to cooking with oils. I use a Foreman girll to cook all my meats, and usually just paper towel it down with some extra virgin olive. Edizu or others, since you say cooking with these oils is not a good idea, what do you suggest I use to grill my steaks, chicken etc. Butter just doesn't taste the same.
 
Greetings camelia.

If butter doesn't tickle your tastebuds and you are apprehensive about using olive oil, perhaps, you could using lemon juice?

The Foreman Grill should be non-stick?

Butter tastes good though, but this, for some, could be an acquired taste.

Apart from lemon juice, you could try using ghee. It's clarified butter and the taste is perhaps, different.

Try it and see.

Godspeed, and happy HSTing.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Camelia @ Jan. 08 2003,8:33)]Just another question in regards to cooking with oils. I use a Foreman girll to cook all my meats, and usually just paper towel it down with some extra virgin olive. Edizu or others, since you say cooking with these oils is not a good idea, what do you suggest I use to grill my steaks, chicken etc. Butter just doesn't taste the same.
I steam my meats, and then add the oils if I want to. It's the best way. Grilling produces to much heat, and is not the miraculous cooking method most believe it to be. Now steaming on the other hand....
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Camelia @ Jan. 08 2003,3:33)]Just another question in regards to cooking with oils. I use a Foreman girll to cook all my meats, and usually just paper towel it down with some extra virgin olive. Edizu or others, since you say cooking with these oils is not a good idea, what do you suggest I use to grill my steaks, chicken etc. Butter just doesn't taste the same.
I'll hold back on this one, being a vegetarian and all. . .
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (RainierWolfcastle @ Jan. 09 2003,12:13)]Why are trans fatty acids, hydrogenated fats and heat damaged fats bad ? ie what bad effects do they have when you injest them ?
Rainier.
Trans fatty acids are related to cancer, heart disease by means of increasing bad cholesterol by large amounts, and diabetes I think. As far as I know they even wreck your cell metabolism big time. Aaron probably knows the details better than me. Apparently they are very similar (isomers I think) to other natural fats and end up being utilised in cell menbranes resulting in different cell metabolism. Don't know much more but this is more than enough to keep me away from them whenever possible.
 
Hydrogenated fats are fats that are solidified by adding hydrogen to them (makes them saturated fats). During this process (and heat/oxygen in general) some are converted into trans fats, which Eladic acid (c18:1t the trans isomer of oleic acid) is the most common. Instead of being bent > they become straight \ which affects how they react to the body.
Biologically they behave like saturated fats and have been associated with a lot of things that they have been, I have a list somewhere...
THe cholesterolemic effect is interesting, as most saturated fats increase both LDL and HDL, where as trans increase LDL nad decrease HDL
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It should also be noted, there was trans fats available before hydrogentation took off, dairy fat contains small amounts etc.
I know most people berate margerine for its trans content, but the newer soft marg's have very low levels compared to the older hard ones. (and most people i know go "nah Im not eating that death trap marg, then go eat 2 donuts with 20x the trans content.....
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)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]and most people i know go "nah Im not eating that death trap marg, then go eat 2 donuts with 20x the trans content

My sister-in-law stayed over the other day and bought dinner one night. She bought a roast chicken and a bunch of hot chips. She would have eaten about 300g of chips but was diligent to take the skin off her chicken.

Rainier.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Jan. 09 2003,2:42)](and most people i know go "nah Im not eating that death trap marg, then go eat 2 donuts with 20x the trans content.....
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)
just wondering, i know most fried foods are to be avoided, but is the trans fat content primarily a result of the oil already being a shortening/hydrogenated version or because it's been in those vats/fryers all day (and even all week/month, maybe?) and thus the oil has been converted to trans fats as a result of that?
 
Most places currently use vegetable based products for deep frying. Most I have seen is oil based, but that doesnt mean that all dont use crisco (vegetable shortning).
IF its crisco, it has a very high trans content to start with, but with oils, they generally start with low to none, and over time (several days from memory) it increases. If the oil solidifies after sitting, it has some hydrogenation/trans content.
 
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