No gains during 5s and negs

[JimmyC]

i have been training hst style for a while, and have done a bunch of cycles, resulting in some great gains. ive figured out that i respond best to high frequency training 6x a week.

i have always had great gains during the 10s and even some during the 15s, but have never had any size gains during my 5s and post 5s.

the way i now see it is that if i just shorten the 5s to one week, and dont do any continuous work at my 5rm or with negatives, that would be more beneficial for me.
reason being that i dont get gains from the heavy lifting, so why waste valuable time doing it anyway, when i could just go into SD and come back with the lighter weights and get some real gains.
Also, wouldnt i be able to do a shorter SD if i do it this way?

any input on if this is a good or bad idea?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Question, what's your volume like comparing the 10's to 5's?
Question 2, what's your exercise choice like comparing the 10's to 5's?
Question 3, what's your diet like comparing 10's to 5's?

 

[JimmyC]

1. i use cluster sets, and i aim for 15reps main exercises and 10-12 reps isolation, 6x a week. i keep the volume constant throughout the cycle.

2.
10s
Squats/SLDL
Inc Bench
Bent Row
Leg Ext
Dips
Pullups
Tris
Bis

5s
i do the same, only i add a set of flyes for chest, but i have to decrease the volume from every 24hrs to every 48hrs because either the DOMS is too much from the heavy weights followed by the light metabolic work, or i just dont feel like training the next day (i usually go by feel).

3. my diet is also about the same in both. i eat as much as i can as often as i can, and it seems to work since ive gained about 5 lbs this cycle (about 5 weeks (but not at all during the heavier weights)).

..so it seems like the only real difference between them is the decreased frequency.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Yup, decreased frequency causing a reduction in overall volume. Generally you can get away with this because of the heavier load but perhaps this is something you need to look at next cycle. Try a cycle with higher frequency in the 5's, I wouldn't suggest going balls to the walls with 6X a week but maybe try 4 or 5 and see if it makes a difference, or reduce your volume in the 15 and 10's (probably not the best idea since you already know you are growing in the 10's so it appears your freq is correct).

 

[stan]

...dude, if you shrink the days from 6 down to 3, do you really think it won't make a difference?

Either you continue doing 6x a week with 5s and reduce the weights so you can do it 6 times per week, or you reduce the 15s and 10s down to 3x a week.

The only thing which is supposed to change is the weight increase, and going from 1 set of 15 reps, to 2 sets of 10, then to 3 sets of 5 reps and then go overboard in the negatives, overboard I say!

S.

 

[JimmyC]

so what would you suggest i do if i cant train that frequently with the heavy weights, but i repsond best to the frequent training the rest of the cycle?

also, i forgot to add that i havent repsonded well to the 5s and post-5s when i have done a few 3x-a-week cycles either.

 

[vicious]

I think lack of size gains is due to lack of metabolic work . Some people (esp. those with low metabolism or don't store carbohydrates efficienctly) really need a light 15s set after their 5s. Just enough to cause a burn. Give that a shot and see how that works for ya.

cheers,
Jules

 

[JimmyC]

Quote[/b] ]I think lack of size gains is due to lack of metabolic work . Some people (esp. those with low metabolism or don't store carbohydrates efficienctly) really need a light 15s set after their 5s. Just enough to cause a burn. Give that a shot and see how that works for ya.

actually, after reading a post of yours about doing a light 15s set after the heavy weights, i have started doing it. it has been giving me pretty extreme DOMS sometimes, but nothing in the size department.


so ive been thinking, what if i just go throught my cycle but only do 1 week of 5s. therefore my cycle will end as soon as all my gains stop coming. my cycles would be even shorter, but then again i would be able to get away with a shorter SD since i never really work with the heavy weights that much, right?

any input or suggestions?
thanks

 

[imported_domineaux]

I put up an earlier posting about the amazing 5s FYI, which you might read. I'm delighted with strength gains.

I've not noticed much in the way of physical gains duing the 5s either, but I have noticed a major increase in my strength.

I've done 2 weeks and I'm going to get off 2 more weeks of fives and I'm loving them. I just keep putting on more weight and I'm competent with it. I had a great workout this morning and I just keep piling on the weight every workout.

What I convert that to mean:

After SD and I restart my 15s I'm going to be a lot stronger and my progress through the next cycle will be a darn good increase over my current cycle.

Now this may seem a little over simplified, but I've noticed a direct correlation between physical muscle size and what a BB can exercise with, weight wise, i.e. I'm not seeing guys with 13" inch arms curling 40# DB, etc. I see guys with 15 inch arms curling 40# DB. What I'm saying is this...you've gotta get bigger to go with the strength levels. I not sure, which drives which.

Regardless, I see size as a component of strength in a BB that is working out on a regular basis.

You might think about working your buns off in the 5s, that's what I'm doing, and look for the gains next cycle. Maybe this is all part of the HST magic.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (domineaux @ April 25 2005,11:50)]

Muscle CSA is directly involved in the amount of force it can produce, but not necessarily strength. I know this sounds strange but strength has other factors that are influencing the potential, leverage, momemt arm, neural drive. So for the most part YES, you need to be big to be stronger but you can get stronger without getting bigger.

If someone is not growing during the 5's, but is during the 10's then they have to look at what is being done differently between the two. In this case there is a drop in overall volume due to the decrease in frequency. Also as Vicious points out the metabolic signalling is different between the 10's and 5's, 10's still produce a metabolic stress while the 5's generally do not. So Vicious makes a sound point try adding in a set of high reps after the load set, but I would also agree with keeping frequency higher but maybe performing only one set during the fives.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]but then again i would be able to get away with a shorter SD since i never really work with the heavy weights that much, right?

I suppose so (i.e. 9 days), but really the 5s/post-5s is where most of the real muscle gains do come from. The bit about the extreme DOMS piques my interest; that leads me to wonder how your post-WO and overall carb intake looks like. In such a case, doing that burn set actually makes things worse, because it further depletes glycogen stores.

Otherwise I agree with dkm. It's just the bit about extreme DOMS that makes me wonder.

Generally, on a unvarnished HST program, people will tend to see more size gains in one phase than the other. That has largely to do with glycogen storage and water, and there's a few factors (metabolic stress, carb intake, metabolism) that goes into that. But, by and large, the most of the real hypertrophy is generated at the heavy end of HST. By adding a burn set and doing the carb thing, the "real gains" should manifest.

If they don't, then it could be an issue of severe drop in volume. In your case, because you are still feeling DOMS, that suggests you're certainly putting enough strain on the muscle. Thus, I'm wary of saying that's the primary reason. But DOMS could also arouse from inadequate carb intake, particularly post-WO carb intake.

cheers,
Jules

 

[JimmyC]

by ''extreme DOMS" i mean enough DOMS that it will negatively effect my performance if i were to train the next day.
after workouts i shovel those carbs down as much as i can, bc i know how important replenishing those glycogen stores is, esp. after reading some of Jules' posts about it.

i really dont want to stop training every day since it has worked so well for me, even though i cant do it with the heavy weights. i could probably force it, but that cant be good for my CNS or my joints and such.

so heres what im probably going to try next cycle:
when things get heavy, in stead of keeping the same volume each workout but decreasing the frequency (which cuts the total volume in half), i will maintain the same frequency, but cut the volume of the workout itself in half. the decreased volume of the workout itself hopefully will allow me to keep up the frequency without burning out or getting injured with the heavy weights. the total volume would still be cut in half, but in stead of both the frequency and volume decreasing, it would just be the volume.

suggestions/input?

 

[vicious]

That sounds like a good plan.  I'm personally really surprised you're not seeing the gains through 5s/Ns, even though you're apparently getting DOMS and everything else.  When people don't see gains through that period, 90% of the time it's due to a drop in glycogen storage levels.  Go figure!  

Hmm . . this is making me think. I mean, assuming you're eating like a horse, doing the burn set, doing 15 reps proper, the only other thing I can think of is that you've saturated your stores and so the gains you're seeing now are more modest. But if you were saturated, your workouts wouldn't be as hard as they are for you right now.

cheers,
Jules

 

[imported_hannesburk]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ April 27 2005,3:29)]I'm personally really surprised you're not seeing the gains through 5s/Ns, even though you're apparently getting DOMS and everything else. When people don't see gains through that period, 90% of the time it's due to a drop in glycogen storage levels.

This is excately what I thought when reading your post.
seams like you definately produce enough MAPKp38-activity and the key has to be the metabolic (erk1/2)-thing.
I experienced also a lot of DOMS and Strain on some muscles but they did not grow at all..this was when I learned about the Pulse Reps and the importance of metabolic-work.Afterwards I never had these problems anymore and I am quite shure that you could be able to realize even better gains during the last,heavy weeks of your cycle than the weeks before.
when it comes to size-gains,the glycogenstorage is more than important.
did you feel that your muscles where extremely hard but not full after the 5s/post-5s?
shure there will be away to make you love the post-5s
regards
Hannes

 

[JimmyC]

Quote[/b] ]I'm personally really surprised you're not seeing the gains through 5s/Ns, even though you're apparently getting DOMS and everything else

but wouldnt that not be that much of a surprise since we pretty much figured out that it was because both the volume and the frequency have been cut in half? even though i still get the DOMS, that doesnt mean i should be growing, esp since 2 of the variables have been dramatically decreased, right?

Quote[/b] ]did you feel that your muscles where extremely hard but not full after the 5s/post-5s?

i didnt really feel that, they pretty much felt about the same hardness and fullness as before

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]even though i still get the DOMS, that doesnt mean i should be growing, esp since 2 of the variables have been dramatically decreased, right

Perhaps, but DOMS usually signifies that the muscle is still remodeling. And if it's remodeling, all other variables being adequate, it's growing.

That being said, it may very well be the frequency thing. I'd be really interested to see how it plays out.

cheers,
Jules

 

[JimmyC]

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps, but DOMS usually signifies that the muscle is still remodeling. And if it's remodeling, all other variables being adequate, it's growing.

after reading a bunch of stuff about the subject, i was under the impression that soreness didnt have anything to do with growth. so are you saying there is a direct relation between doms and hypertrophy?

Quote[/b] ]That being said, it may very well be the frequency thing. I'd be really interested to see how it plays out.

i will definately keep you posted on the results when i try it out next cycle.

thank you everyone for your input.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]after reading a bunch of stuff about the subject, i was under the impression that soreness didnt have anything to do with growth. so are you saying there is a direct relation between doms and hypertrophy?

Not a directional relationship, no. DOMS is usually a set of inflammatory signals (one notable exception is if you were eating an inadequate caloric or low-carb diet while exercising) that lets you know that muscle has been significantly strained. It is one of various symptoms that tells the trainee that the muscle needs to remodel itself in order to adapt. This is a one way relationship. A significantly strained muscle may not necessarily exhibit DOMS, but a very sore muscle usually signifies sufficient damage.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Dood]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ April 28 2005,12:41)]Perhaps, but DOMS usually signifies that the muscle is still remodeling. And if it's remodeling, all other variables being adequate, it's growing.

Holy Crap Jules, have you been posessed by the spirit of Vince?

Seriously though, I thought we'd pretty much dismissed DOMS as any kind of reliable indicator of hypertrophy, since you can grow without DOMS, and, more to the point, you can get DOMS without growth.

 

[vicious]

I'm actually both Basile and NWLifter. Sometimes I change my views on a lark!

All I'm saying is that if trainee is feeling DOMS through his cycle, then the chances are pretty good (and the notable exception would be if he suddenly crapped out on the diet) that he's generating enough mechanical strain upon the muscle in order to continue growth. Of course, the corollary is that it's rare to feel significant DOMS neear the end of HST unless you're doing something significantly different than what you did earlier in the cycle.

cheers,
Jules