O.K. lame question:

Keebler Elf

New Member
I have been eating 120 grams (LBM = 145 and total weight=158) I am losing ~1 pd/wk.

But I am wondering if protein should still be set at 1g/pd or (1g/pd LBM minimum) considering that by nature of dieting carbs are lowish (~150g) and catabolism is higher?

I can tell yet whether I am losing any significant muscle but I remember Bryan saying that giving the muscle regular irritation for growth and not eating enough protein may take needed protein away from organs etc.
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hi i'm not familiar it all the scientific talk around here alot of the time, but i keep reading and manage to gather more info everytime i read end reread some posts. its hard when english is not you mother tongue. but without getting into physics i can tell from my own experience (ckd) that eating exactly what is needed or just below, ensures that all the proteins eaten get used for building and repairing the muscles and dont get converted to glucose for energy , i used to eat a lot of protein a day( my total cal intake was 3500), since starting my ckd and eating 150 g of protein (i weigh about 176 lbs) i have the feeling that my muscles are harder and fuller than they have on my regular diet of almost 200 g (my cal intake nowadays hoovers between 1750 and 2000).

just personal experience (no science to back it up though, i'm sorry
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Well I am not having any trouble with major muscle loss and I even out did my 15 rms, but I keep seeing this 1g/pd whether dieting or gaining. I eat Zone diet so automatically to get low enough cals for fat loss my protein comes down to keep ratios correct. Now, I dont see any magic in the ZOne and use it simply for the appetite suppression and it seems to keep energy up so it just doesn't feel like a diet but hate to think I losing important organ tissue or something!

About posting links - Look for the http:// button that appears when making a post (just above where you type) Click on that and enter the address, click on ok and enter what you want it to say in the post, click ok again.
 
The minimum amount of protein needed to achieve nitrogen balance is 150g, regardless of bodyweight. So use 0.8-0.9g/lbs of FFM or 150g, whichever is higher.
 
Holy crapolly Batman, 150g is less than I eat when bulking. Now I know where things are going wrong. You know what this means tho, I finally have to give the Zone the shake and suffer like the rest of you
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Well, yes - when you calculate a fatloss diet (using e.g. 12kcal/lbs of BW, 1g/lbs of protein, and 25% or so of calories from fat) it often ends up Zone-ish. Not that there is anything special about "the Zone" though...it just ends up that way.
 
But the magic of the Zone is not being hungry for 4-5 hours after a meal! Setting my protein at 150 and adjusting the carbs to get my calories low enough to go below 10% bf = hungry and ketosis. Physiology sucks huge amounts of @$$ :mad: I am the Roadrunner, never learnt about gravity so I won't fall when I walk off the cliff
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 30 2003,6:30)]The minimum amount of protein needed to achieve nitrogen balance is 150g, regardless of bodyweight.
strange how Im 230lbs and can acieve balance from ~130g, and done the urinalysis myself....
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What research do you base that opinion on Blade?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] am the Roadrunner, never learnt about gravity so I won't fall when I walk off the cliff
I though that was because you were too light>?
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Using just urinalysis alone would not show you the whole picture (fecal, sweat). Research has established that a minimum protein intake of 1.5 grams protein/kg of BW is necessary to achieve nitrogen balance (1, 2, 3), although carbohydrates can certainly be protein sparing of course. There is also a high variability, and if you feel comfortable that you are safe with 120g/day then that is perfectly fine - I just tend to stick with recommendations that err on the high side.

The following is based on some information found in Lyle's ketogenic diet book:

In a study looking at the metabolic effects of various dietary approaches, subjects were studied under a total of 6 different dietary conditions (4). The first was a 400 calorie diet consisting of 100 grams of protein. In this group the average negative nitrogen balance was -2 grams, the equivalent of 12 grams of body protein broken down to make glucose. An additional 20 grams of dietary protein (for a total
of 120 grams/day) would have provided this amount of glucose and prevented any nitrogen losses. The second group was given 800 calories as 200 grams of protein. There was a positive nitrogen balance of almost 8 grams/day, the
equivalent of 48 grams of protein. This suggests that a protein intake of 152 grams would have been sufficient to achieve nitrogen balance. The difference between the two values for protein intake determined in this study (120g vs 152g) can not be explained from the data presented.

In another study, eight men were placed on diets of 1800 calories, containing 115g protein for 9 weeks (5). Carbohydrate varied from 104 grams to 60 grams to 30 grams. Nitrogen balance was slightly negative during the first week of the diet. Approximately 2g of nitrogen were lost (equal to 13g of protein converted to glucose), meaning that
22 additional grams of protein would have been required to attain nitrogen balance. Added to the 115 grams of protein given, this yields a total of 137 grams of protein to prevent all nitrogen losses. Nitrogen balance was achieved during week 2 and became slightly positive during the third week.

So, it appears that a protein intake of at least 120-150g/day should be sufficient to maintain nitrogen balance, regardless of calorie levels. However, this value does not include any additional protein needed to cover exercise, and none of these studies have discussed weight training individuals. Already muscular and lean individuals also tend to lose more protein during hypocaloric conditions.

1. Phinney S. Exercise during and after very-low-calorie dieting. Am J Clin Nutr (1992) 56: 190S-194S

2. Davis PG and Phinney SD. Differential effects of two very low calorie diets on aerobic and anaerobic performance. Int J Obes (1990) 14: 779-787.

3. Bistrian BR et. al. Effect of a protein-sparing diet and brief fast on nitrogen metabolism in mildly obese subjects. J Lab Med (1977) 89:1030-1035

4. Bell J. et. al. Ketosis, weight loss, uric acid, and nitrogen balance in obese women fed single nutrients at low caloric levels. Metab Clin Exp (1969) 18:193-208. (Abstract not available)

5. Young CM et. al. Effect on body composition and other parameters in young men of carbohydrate reduction in diet. Am J Clin Nutr (1971) 24: 290-296. (Abstract not available)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 30 2003,12:45)]Using just urinalysis alone would not show you the whole picture (fecal, sweat). Research has established that a minimum protein intake of 1.5 grams protein/kg of BW is necessary to achieve nitrogen balance (1, 2, 3), although carbohydrates can certainly be protein sparing of course. There is also a high variability, and if you feel comfortable that you are safe with 120g/day then that is perfectly fine - I just tend to stick with recommendations that err on the high side.)
You would be lucky to find any nitrogen balance trials that ever measure sweat/skin losses, very few even bother with fecal losses. They are generally calculated at the constant 2gm nitrogen for each.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The following is based on some information found in Lyle's ketogenic diet book:
Remember lyles book is old, should do a revision really, but he currently just quotes 1g/lb for ease of use.
Most of the papers are single points, and relate to rather extreme calorie reduction in rather overweight people. The generally recommendations (1.8-2.0g/kg) are the "rda' figures for weight trainers, which are the upper 95% CI for the 'normal populations' requirements. Some will need less, I cant remember the SD calculated at the moment (peter lemon goes into this a fair bit) but some people will need 1.2 some will need 1.8.
Tarnoplosky quotes a few papers between him and Lemon that show a lower net protien requirement on elite levels strength trainers compared to beginers, potentially due to greater protein utilization etc.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You would be lucky to find any nitrogen balance trials that ever measure sweat/skin losses, very few even bother with fecal losses. They are generally calculated at the constant 2gm nitrogen for each.

Well, 2g of nitrogen equals 12g of body protein broken down to provide glucose. An additional 20g of protein ingested would've prevented this. So your calculation may or may not be off, no point in arguing this though. There's still reason to believe that one should err on the high side with protein IMO. Most people respond better on fat loss diets by reducing carbs or fat (depending on macronutrient ratios) compared to protein.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Remember lyles book is old, should do a revision really, but he currently just quotes 1g/lb for ease of use.

Well, yes - but in a hypocaloric situation with low-ish carbs, that recommendation is not too far off.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Tarnoplosky quotes a few papers between him and Lemon that show a lower net protien requirement on elite levels strength trainers compared to beginers, potentially due to greater protein utilization etc.

The body adapts by reducing oxidation as you know, and we could also go into a protein cycling debate where there seems to be temporary benefits towards increased protein levels - but when on a mass gaining, hypercaloric diet with vast amounts of carbs and insulin, protein isn't as critical as in the opposite situation.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Feb. 01 2003,9:55)]Well, 2g of nitrogen equals 12g of body protein broken down to provide glucose. An additional 20g of protein ingested would've prevented this. So your calculation may or may not be off, no point in arguing this though. There's still reason to believe that one should err on the high side with protein IMO.
2g (well actually 4g) was calulated into the equation. I was saying postive nitrogen balance with an intake of ~130g/day
I never really said it (higher protein) was bad, I just dont see the point of a set 150g or higher, for everyone. But then again I dont like ratios either...
I should as a disclaimer, that I was at a higher range of bodyfat then, so it does help. This probably allows me to run at the lower end of the standard curve of protien intakes.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Most people respond better on fat loss diets by reducing carbs or fat (depending on macronutrient ratios) compared to protein.
People should never reduce protein when dieting. If you are well overweight it matters less though.
But in relation to bodybuilders, it would be interesting to find some research showing dieting while training with very low BF. Most are generally related to endurance style exercise.
 
Yes, and I'd also like to see some research on protein needs for AAS-using bodybuilders, the 500-600g/day intakes that are common now seem kinda exaggerated. Nasser El Sonbaty says on his website that he ingests 100g/day of protein in his offseason - 0.3g/lbs of BW...fact or fiction?
 
Not so lame a question after all, phew.

Goos news is that I have broken from the Zone for a whole two days and it aint so bad
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but I haven't had a workout yet.

I have upped the protein to ~150 (which puts it ~1g/pd LBM) dived it equally across 6 meals with my fat allocation of 30% and am having the remainder of cals (carbs) split so that half is in one meal (dinner/post workout) and the other half divided evenly wih the other meals (~20g)

So far I am hungry about every 3.5 hours rather than 4-5 but I can live with that.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Feb. 02 2003,12:41)]Yes, and I'd also like to see some research on protein needs for AAS-using bodybuilders, the 500-600g/day intakes that are common now seem kinda exaggerated. Nasser El Sonbaty says on his website that he ingests 100g/day of protein in his offseason - 0.3g/lbs of BW...fact or fiction?
I think so, even with AAS, there should be a limited level the body can adjust to processing aminos in the liver, there is old data for a maximum rate in normal men (maximal urea synthesis rate) which is around 180-250g protein for a 80kg male. Even then, with the size that some get to, that rate wouldnt follow bodyweight like hte origonal equation allowed for. 500-600 would possibly be at the high end of the range, but I have known 90kg people trying to get that much...
Lou Ferregno (sp?) was also meant to take in a relatively low protein content ~150g, or so the magazine claims....
 
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