Oat + Whey shakes?

M

martin85

New Member
I am about to do 2 HST cycles while bulking and was wondering if this shake would be a good thing to add to my diet twice a day. It seems like it'd be good to squeeze in calories. I got it from bodybuilding.com forums.

16oz ice cold skim milk
1/2 cup ground steel cut oats
1 scoop of ON whey (chocolate)

571 calories
77 grams of carbs
53 grams of protein
7 grams of fat

I was thinking about having 1 for breakfast and 1 post workout. Are their any "optimal" times that this shake would be most effective?
 
This is an ideal BB meal anytime EXCEPT immediately post workout. You should be getting some high GI carbs plus whey protein immediately post workout.

Just a tip, I eat something similar for breakfast, although I usually add flaxseed or pumpkin seeds for EFAs and also gives a nice 'nutty' taste!
 
Its perfect for bulking, I do the same thing, except I just add the required protein shake to my cooked oatmeal.
 
Does anyone know how to transport milk keeping it cold? I can't imagine mixing this shake w/ water and I don't think I can afford to buy milk at my school everyday.
 
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(rpopple @ Dec. 18 2006,04:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is an ideal BB meal anytime EXCEPT immediately post workout. You should be getting some high GI carbs plus whey protein immediately post workout.

Just a tip, I eat something similar for breakfast, although I usually add flaxseed or pumpkin seeds for EFAs and also gives a nice 'nutty' taste!</div>
The pwo high GI carbs is still a common approach but it's pretty outdated. There are numerous other approaches that work as well as or better (aminos and waxy maize, for example). And as for flax seed, I trust you grind them first??

Go ahead and try the oats... but if you're gonna grind them, save the money and just use something like quaker old fashioned. No advantage on blowing dough on steel cut or scottish/stone cut. Save that for the bowl.  
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As far as keeping milke cold, get a small thermos bag and a blue ice pack.
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To keep the milk cold - get one of those soft sided 6 pack coolers and put a reusable ice pack in it.  That'll keep whatever you want to carry cold.  I use two of them to carry my food to work every day.

I eat a lot.

EDIT: My favorite shake is 2 cups skim milk, 2 scoops whey, 1 banana. That's 57g protein, 57g carbs, and very little fat. Tastes great too (for a BB type shake).

Might be hard to do at school without a blender though. The oatmeal shakes taste like monkey's ass probably would.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The pwo high GI carbs is still a common approach but it's pretty outdated. There are numerous other approaches that work as well as or better (aminos and waxy maize, for example). And as for flax seed, I trust you grind them first??</div>

All the articles that I've ever read on immediate PWO nutrition all preach the high GI carbs approach for replacing glycogen levels and the insulin spike. If you have research to the contrary, I would be interested in reading.

As far as the flax seed goes, you definately have to grind them or both metaphorically and literally, you're flushing it straight down the toilet.
 
True- many still cite high GI carbs... but there's a growing sense that 1) most people do not deplete all that much -muscle- glycogen in a typical 45 minute workout.

I used to dump the typical vat of dextrose/maltodextrin in me after lifting. Now I use maybe 30g waxy maize and BCAA's pre/post and am growing like never before. Check Bobo's thoughts over at anabolicminds and also Alan Aragon's thinking, including his threads at bb.com
 
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(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 19 2006,14:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The pwo high GI carbs is still a common approach but it's pretty outdated. There are numerous other approaches that work as well as or better (aminos and waxy maize, for example).</div>
Waxy maize is high GI, or at least the manufacturers data shows this, rather than any independant testing
 
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(Aaron_F @ Dec. 21 2006,03:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 19 2006,14:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The pwo high GI carbs is still a common approach but it's pretty outdated. There are numerous other approaches that work as well as or better (aminos and waxy maize, for example).</div>
Waxy maize is high GI, or at least the manufacturers data shows this, rather than any independant testing</div>
No, WMS has LOW GI, generally around 40. Waxy maize is not a sugar, it's a starch and doesn't spike insulin. It passes into the bloodstream very quickly, taking with it the proteins you really need (BCAA's in my case).

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So what’s so special with Waxy Maize in comparison to dextrose or maltodextrin? Many people have used a mix of dextrose and maltodextrin for post workout nutrition for years because it works and is vital for proper glycogen replenishment. Welcome to the new era of post workout nutrition… Waxy Maize Starch. WMS has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean… Mainly, WMS bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.

WMS can help the absorption rates of many of your favorite supplements like creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester, cell volumization and nitric oxide type supplements, etc. Nutrients like this often times are left in the stomachs harsh acidic environment and degrade absorption rates. WMS helps shuttle these nutrients to bypass the stomach and allow the body to assimilate these nutrients at a much higher rate.

WMS has the ability to replenish the body’s glycogen stores much faster than a mix of maltodextrin or dextrose. This is accomplished again by WMS’s ability to bypass the stomach and go to the intestines for immediate absorption. WMS’s ability to shuttle all these nutrients and starch gives the body an immediate &quot;pump&quot; you can physically feel in your muscles post workout. You will see a much larger, fuller and rounder muscle belly.

Dextrose and maltodextrin can cause water retention and bloating, hence WMS’s popularity with pre contest and contest preparation carbohydrate replenishment. Many dieters choose WMS as their carb of choice as it is sugar free and an ideal source of a long chain complex carbohydrate.

</div>
 
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(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 21 2006,07:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Dec. 21 2006,03:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 19 2006,14:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The pwo high GI carbs is still a common approach but it's pretty outdated. There are numerous other approaches that work as well as or better (aminos and waxy maize, for example).</div>
Waxy maize is high GI, or at least the manufacturers data shows this, rather than any independant testing</div>
No, WMS has LOW GI, generally around 40. Waxy maize is not a sugar, it's a starch and doesn't spike insulin. It passes into the bloodstream very quickly, taking with it the proteins you really need (BCAA's in my case).

</div>[/quote]
How could a LOW GI carb pass in the bloodstream very quickly? If it passes so quickly it is HIGH GI and it CERTAINLY would spike insulin unless you are diabetic. A healthy body won't let around 6gr of blood sugar (600 mg/dl) because it is dangerous. So I'd really like to see how this maize thing works, what it is and any medical research that was done...
 
Yeah, that long quote sounded like an ad. I've never heard of the stuff. What's it for outside of BB'ing and where do you get it? Link?
 
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(Tripex @ Dec. 21 2006,08:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 21 2006,07:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Dec. 21 2006,03:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 19 2006,14:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The pwo high GI carbs is still a common approach but it's pretty outdated. There are numerous other approaches that work as well as or better (aminos and waxy maize, for example).</div>
Waxy maize is high GI, or at least the manufacturers data shows this, rather than any independant testing</div>
No, WMS has LOW GI, generally around 40. Waxy maize is not a sugar, it's a starch and doesn't spike insulin. It passes into the bloodstream very quickly, taking with it the proteins you really need (BCAA's in my case).

</div></div>
How could a LOW GI carb pass in the bloodstream very quickly? If it passes so quickly it is HIGH GI and it CERTAINLY would spike insulin unless you are diabetic. A healthy body won't let around 6gr of blood sugar (600 mg/dl) because it is dangerous. So I'd really like to see how this maize  thing works, what it is and any medical research that was done...[/quote]
With all respect, you need to do some research. Because of it's high molecular weight/low osmolarity (lower still if blended with enough water) it's able to get into the bloodstream quickly.

&quot;Amylocel/Amylopectin&quot; or  WMS is what used to be in Vitargo. They use a barley variant now. WMS has been around for a long time- but the Swede's (Vitargo) are the ones who proved it's effectiveness for BB.

It was/is primarily of interest in baking and is now being researched as a strach that would help create lower-GI breads with antioxidant properties. It's pretty far out there but has a growing base of supporters.

You can order bulk WMS from TrueProtein. A couple of other places will have it eventually.


A clip from the Journal &quot;Prepared Foods&quot;:

Resistant Starches

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">“Resistant starch has been a critical ingredient in the last year to support the development of high-quality, low-carb products,” says Light. The nutritional value of resistant starch also lowers the glycemic index. High-amylose starches tend to be a key raw material for manufacturers looking to produce resistant starch. Because of the white color, bland taste and low moisture binding ability, resistant starch can produce organoleptically pleasing bakery and snack products, when compared to other fibers. “Natural resistant starch has over 140 clinical studies showing the physiological benefits of resistant starch,” informs Light.</div>

Take a visit to IntenseMuscle.com where folks have been experimenting with it for several months. Skip will be posting their results of trials soon.


*Keep in mind- anything you injest affects insulin... hell BCAA's affect insulin. But WMS won't hit you like Dextrose, etc.
 
And This is from Troponin from MuscleMayhem (Trop is a trainer who really knows his stuff):

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't think you'll find any studies on the subject, but in my own personal findings, I think that any less than 67% of your total pwo mixture containing waxy maize, and you'll begin to see a noticable change in absorption.

One of the big benefits of WM is it's osmolality, which I believe is around 11 mmol/kg in a 5% solution. Compare that to blood at around 300mmol/kg.
What this means is it's kind of like a cannonball being shot at a fishing net, the fishing net just gets dragged along for the ride.
So, theoretically, any nutrient added to the WM will be &quot;pulled&quot; with the WM, hopefully increasing absoprtion rates.

The problem is, any amino based nutrient (protein, amino acids, creatine, etc.) has a MUCH lower molecular weight than WM. So, any added nutrients must, at least in theory, lower the total molecular weight of the &quot;meal&quot; that includes the WM.

Like I said above, I've found that any more than 33% of the total solution containing other ingredients, and you'll notice a change in absorption, based on blood sugar levels.

WM can be very beneficial in it's ability to pull water into the muscle.
Glycogen storage requires three things, sodium, water, and glucose (the WM is broken down to glucose in the small intestine).
WM seems to have the ability to increase the amount of water that is stored in the muscles.
For this reason, I feel that other cell volumizing ingredients are good to take with the WM. (IE: creatine, taurine, etc.)

An enzyme called &quot;glycogen synthetase&quot; is elevated for about 2 hours post workout (pulling from memory, may be longer). This increases the body's ability to store glycogen after a workout.
So, for these reasons, the WM is great for post workout usage.

My own personal WM usage is along the following lines currently:
110g WM
10g BCAA
10g L-leucine (shown to be the specific amino acid to stimulate protein synthesis)
10g creatine

15-20min after that I have the following:
50-100g carbs from oatmeal
30g whey isolate
10g BCAA's.

I've also experimented with WM usage at multiple points during the day. This would be done on days where carbohydrate intake would be elevated. The goal is maximal glycogen storage, and maximal &quot;cell volumization&quot; in the muscles.
I've been currently going up to 8 scoops total for the day.</div>
 
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2000 Mar;81(4):346-51. Links
Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses.

* Piehl Aulin K,
* Soderlund K,
* Hultman E.

Department of Medical Sciences, University of Uppsala/LIVI, S-791 88 Falun, Sweden.

The rate of muscle glycogen synthesis during 2 and 4 h of recovery after depletion by exercise was studied using two energy equivalent carbohydrate drinks, one containing a polyglucoside with a mean molecular mass of 500 000-700 000 (C drink), and one containing monomers and oligomers of glucose with a mean molecular mass of approximately 500 (G drink). The osmolality was 84 and 350 mosmol. l(-1), respectively. A group of 13 healthy well-trained men ingested the drinks after glycogen depleting exercise, one drink at each test occasion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed was 300 g (4.2 g. kg(-1)) body mass given as 75 g in 500 ml water immediately after exercise and again 30, 60 ad 90-min post exercise. Blood glucose and insulin concentrations were recorded at rest and every 30 min throughout the 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsies were obtained at the end of exercise and after 2 and 4 h of recovery. Mean muscle glycogen contents after exercise were 52.9 (SD 27.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the C group and 58.3 (SD 35.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the G group. Mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher during the initial 2 h for the C drink compared to the G drink: 50.2 (SD 13.7) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C group and 29.9 (SD 12.5) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the G group. During the last 2 h the mean synthesis rate was 18.8 (SD 33.3) and 23.3 (SD 22.4) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C and G group, respectively (n.s.). Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks. Our data indicted that the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.
 
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(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 22 2006,01:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No, WMS has LOW GI, generally around 40. Waxy maize is not a sugar, it's a starch and doesn't spike insulin. It passes into the bloodstream very quickly, taking with it the proteins you really need (BCAA's in my case).</div>
now provide evidence that isnt stupid bro' logic

WMS is high GI

Waxy maize starch is a long chain of glucose molecules, and all digestible carbs are ultimately sugar.

The advantage of a large molecule is that for a given carbohydrate quantity you will achieve a much lower osmolality. This allows rapid uptake of the glucose molecules from the gastro intestinal tract, and rapidly raising blood glucose.

shall we go with the first waxy maize product on the market, vitargo.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is the Glycemic Index GI of Vitargo?
Many people ask the glycemic Index of carbs in common.
A sports drink should have a high glycemic index, giving a rapid and easy accessible energy to the blood stream and this is the case of Vitargo. No exact value is known at the moment, but insulin and blood glucose values indicates the same GI as for maltodextrine(glucose polymer) ~137.</div>

http://www.vitargo.com/01UK/Other/Faq.html


Or lets play with your evidence shall we

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2000 Mar;81(4):346-51. Links
Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses.
</div>

from the above paper, glucose concentrations following C (carb drink - vitargo) or G (glucose drink with a mix of dextrose and malto)


glucoseqv1.jpg


Wow, they look awfully similar, shouldnt vitargo have a lower glucose concentration during what basically amounts to a GI test.

in fact in the text the authors state &quot;Blood glucose and insulin concentrations in the C and G groups did not differ signifcantly at any point during the study as shown in Figs. 3 and 4.&quot;

so in fact, the blood glucose from waxy maize starch did not differ from glucose and maltodextrin, both of which are definately a high GI carbohydrate, as dextrose is the control substance that gives 100.

I wonder what that makes Waxy maize starch?
 
<div>
(4 8 15 16 23 42 @ Dec. 22 2006,15:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A clip from the Journal &quot;Prepared Foods&quot;:

Resistant Starches</div>
I see why you think WMS is low GI, WMS is not a resistant starch.

If it were a resistant starch you would not be absorbing it, it wouldnt be replacing glycogen quciker. Resistant starch is a non-digestible polysaccharide which ultimately feeds microbiota in your colon, providing SCFA's to the body, and if your unlucky, gas.
 
It's not &quot;why I think&quot; bro... It's every chart, graph and journal I've read that states it's GI is around 40.

Regardless... I know what it does as do the many others who have given it extensive trial.

I know the pwo rush you get from dex/malto and I know that WMS doesn't do this.

To each their own.


And to your quote from VITARGO... read above where you quoted... that particular Vitargo is using Barley, not WMS, as I mentioned a few posts up.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Can I use Vitargo if I suffer from celiaki(gluten intolerance)?
Vitargo is a starch manufactured from BARLEY amylopectin starch.</div>
 
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