SAID PRINCIPLE

Discussion in 'Strength-Specific Training (SST)' started by anoopbal, Jan 28, 2004.

  1. anoopbal

    anoopbal New Member

    According to the SAID or Specificity theory, strength, balance and cordination are specific to the movement.So if is true, is there any benefit of doing free weights over machines.As a matter of fact. is there any benefit to weight training at all other than injury prevention. Can there be a carry over or transfer of strength?
    :) Anoop
     
  2. anoopbal

    anoopbal New Member

    Is there anyone who would like to comment on this.By transfer I meant, can weight training be beneficial for athletes.I know almost all athletes do weight training.But is there any studies to prove the benefits of weight training in athletes?
    :) Anoop
     
  3. Dianabol

    Dianabol Guest

    Dear anoopbal,

    1. As a matter of fact. is there any benefit to weight training at all other than injury prevention. Can there be a carry over or transfer of strength?

    >>>> Yes, there can be a transfer of strength. This does not mean that if you increase your bench press by 100lbs, you can hit a baseball with 100lbs more force, or throw a punch with 100lbs more force. Strength is perhaps learning to rev the engine - recruiting fibres and using certain tricks of efficiency to have a greater output of power, whereas a sport-specific activity is akin to revving the engine but with control of the car - this could mean the amateur with the V8 engine losing the race to the professional with the V6 engine because the pro not only has skill in output of power, she/he also has skill in the specific sporting activity. Skill in strength plus skill in sporting activity is obviously superior that skill in strength alone.

    2. By transfer I meant, can weight training be beneficial for athletes

    >>>> In the past, coaches felt that weight-training would make their athletes "muscle-bound" - slow, and stiff. But it is now realized that stronger muscles plus same degree of skill in a sport is way superior than weaker muscles plus same degree in a sport. Skill in a sport gives rise to a sporting efficiency no doubt, but add more available power to that from stronger muscles and you'd have even greater sporting capability. Think of it as a power to skill ratio. When buying a car, the power to weight ratio is an indication of how the car is tuned and for what purpose. A low power to weight ratio despite having a high overall power output indicates that this vehicle is used for carrying heavy loads but will not be good for racing. On the other hand, a high power to weight ratio despite a lower power output can give a vehicle an impressive 0-100km/h or 0-60mph... and we'd know this car was not meant to carry heavy loads but instead, built to race.

    If it helps, think of strength training only as making the athlete into a truck - ample power but quite different from a sports car. Learning to use that strength in a skillful way improves the power to skill ratio of that athlete and the higher this ratio, the more ferrari that athlete becomes. This is of course useful only if the event calls for a fast 0-100.... if the event was about carrying heavy loads then it's pointless training to be a ferrari :D

    This really begs the question - we should not expect any carryover of skill per se since skill in strength and skill in a specific sporting activity (I am assuming you aren't talking about weight-lifting for a weight-lifting competition.....) is very different. But increase a muscle's power output, and at the same time learning to apply such newfound power by practicing a particular movement required for the sport is the only real way for any "transfer".

    By all means, take out the 3.0 twin-cam engine and whack in the 6.0 V8 Twin Turbo, but such upgrade is to the engine only. The rest of the car needs to be further retuned and modified so that the rest of the car also is V8 level. Also, take a course in professional racing to better apply the intricacies of racing, if not, a skillful driver with a 3.0 can beat the bull in a china shop of a V8.

    Enough car talk :D

    Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
     
  4. anoopbal

    anoopbal New Member

    Thanks , dianabol.I understand that there can be a "some" carryover;if there wasnt any we would never be able to do any movement if we havent pracitised it.But my question is are the beneifits a bit inflated without any real reason.The theory of specificity says that balance and coordination is "specific" to the movement or skill.Almost all of the sport movements requires a skill componenet far far greater than just brute power or strength. The very reason why weight traininers only practise the same lifts they are competing .In weight lifting (snatch ..) or any sport, unlike power training( bench press, squats..) skill factor is is the most influencing factor for success. For ex, try changing your grip and shooting a basketball.You will be way off, bcos you havent practised with that grip.The new grip is an altogether new movement for the brain which has its own firing pattern.According to the "sport- specific" training, you should try to do movements which are closely related to the common movements found in a sport.So is cleanand jerk or snatch similiar to any sporting movement?Any coments?
    :) Anoop
     
  5. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    add strength and you will get strenght carry over, but you have to do sports specific drills to aquire skill. Which is why OL do OL lifts.
    Being stronger (with no bodyweight gain) will give the ability to do certain things easier, but may not make you a better athlete. also need some specificity on skills, unilateral strength and the likes.

    That makes no sense at all...
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This is where plyometrics comes in- it bridges the gap between sport-specific training and strength training. For instance, squats and lunges will definitely help the sprinter get off the blocks faster and more powerfully than his or her competition, but those 2 exercises may have no effect on the rest of the race. Plyometrics adds resistance or weight to the specific movement in the given sport. In baseball, you warm up in the on deck circle with "doughnuts" on your bat- the added weight helps you to speed up the start of the swing once those doughnuts are removed. In football, receivers and other speed athletes routinely run with a "parachute" attached to increase speed.
    As for carry over- yes, overall strength definitely carries over to sport-specific power. The best proof of this is that most NBA players won't train with weights during the season, because even a small change in overall strength can throw off their shooting. Even though they have undoubtedly thrown a million more free-throws and 3 point shots (and thus those motor skills are best developed) than they have done bench presses.
    Another example can be seen when an athlete gets fatigued. With fatigue comes less overall strength- even though the skill induced firing pattern may remain the same, the muscles no longer have the strength to perform the action, and the hurdler bites the dust! :)
    OH! So plyometrics can be seen as the ultimate in "freeweight" training. You are free to move in the way the sport requires, with bands, doughnuts, parachutes, etc., as opposed to moving in the pattern required by weights. So yes, freeweights are always better than machines (except in terms of safety), because you can move in your specific groove, and you have to stabilize and control the weight yourself. :)
     
  7. anoopbal

    anoopbal New Member

    Squats and lunges will only have a significant effect in your start only if it is done explosively.This is exactly the basis of explosive lifting, olympic lifting and plyometrics.This is in accordance with the theory of specificity.If you move a bar at slow speed you will be good moving the bar at that slow speed.This can be physiologically attributed to the increase in the rate of firing of fast twitch fibers, increasing the elastic potential of the muscle, and training the stretch shortening cycle.Squats and lunges can have an effect on the actual race, since the same joints are used here.As I mentioned before, the carry over depends on the level of skill in the required sport.Running, sprinting, jumping, an so on the skill level is minimum when compared to other sporting activities like shooting a basketball, hitiing a baseball or spiking a volleyball.You can shoot a baskeball hundred times without having any similiar movemnt pattern in all the shots.They all will require its own firing pattern.That's why there are average players and great players.
    This is exactly where I am going to.The example of NBA playes is not an example of carryover but its a perfect exampe of the "negative" effects of carryover and the theory of specificity.The NBA players do not train with weights during the season is that because this will disrupt the proper motor skills. Like in all sports, skill specific mesocycle comes prior to the season.This is just because skill is more important then strength at that stage and for that specific sport.Another example would be punching with dumbells to improving your punching power.But this will only disrupt the correct motor patterns used in punching.Its a ctch 22 situation here. The activity should be sport specific at the same tile not "too" sport specific.
    As dianabol said,the best advice is to get stronger in the weight room, and hopefully the body will learn to use the newfound strength in skill practise sessions
    My two cents, maybe even less
    :) Anoop
     

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