Squat > Deadlift ?

Discussion in 'Strength-Specific Training (SST)' started by EL_VIEJO, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. EL_VIEJO

    EL_VIEJO New Member

    The other day after finishing my deadlifts a young guy (about 20 y.o.), who usually works out at a different time than I do, came over and helped me strip off the plates. He commented that other than him I was the only person at this gym he ever saw doing squats and deadlifts.  We talked about the benefits for a few minutes, and then he mentioned that he knew he should be able to deadlift more than he can squat but his squat was 50 lbs. more than his deadlift. Now, whenever I hear or read this on one of the forums I´m 99% sure of what the cause is. We still had 135 on the bar so I asked him to do a couple of pulls. His form was spot on - right out of Starting Strength: BBT. Then we moved over to the power rack and I asked him to do a couple of squats, and my suspicions were immediately confirmed.

    So, here IMHO are my top 3 reasons why a person is able to squat more than he can deadlift..

    #3 - You´re an elite power lifter with an 800 lb. raw squat, but you just can´t seem to pull more than 750 because your grip gives out.

    #2 – The deadlift is a new exercise for you or it´s an old exercise that you´ve neglected. After all, if you did deadlifts you wouldn´t have enough time left to do your triceps kick-backs. In either case once you start to do them regularly the strength gains will come surprisingly fast and you´ll soon be pulling more than you squat.

    #1 - YOU AIN´T DOING A PROPER SQUAT!  You are doing some kind of ½ or even ¼ squat.  “Wait just a minute, you old coot,” you say, “I´m doing PARALLEL squats.”  Well, I´m very sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you aren´t even coming close to parallel. You may think you are, but you are not. If it makes you feel any better, most of us perceive that we´re squatting much deeper than we actually are.

    Try this. Stand next to a full length mirror. Put your heels about shoulder width apart with your feet turned out about 30 degrees. Hold your arms out in front of you for balance and sit back into a squat. Look over at the mirror, and when the crease of your hip is lower than the top of your knee STOP. Don´t get up yet. Take a look around. That´s pretty damn deep, isn´t it? Now be honest. You ain´t never been that deep with a load on your back, have you? Do 5 or 6 squats to that depth and get that position burned into your brain. Now do 5 reps with an empty bar. Add some weight and do 5 more reps. Do a couple more warm up sets working up to HALF the weight you were (partially) squatting with before and do 3 sets of 5 across. On your way home from the gym don´t forget to stop off and buy some ibuprophen and be prepared to have trouble walking for the next few days.

    Violá, you can now deadlift more than you squat!

    Sorry for the rant, but I’m just an old man and had to get that off my chest.  [​IMG]
     
  2. XFatMan

    XFatMan New Member

    Good one. Now switch to front squats and use 87.5% of the weight you used for back squats and do the same number of reps. On each rep, go as deep as you can, which is usually a bit deeper than you would have imagined. Have someone watch you to make sure you won't cheat here. If you can still get up with excellent form on each rep, chances are that your back squat was okay. Otherwise, you've been cheating, my friend. I haven't seen one single person, including me, who hasn't been cheating. Front squats are brutal because they don't lie to you as back squats do.
     
  3. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    Good points. As a former competitive powerlifter, I always see folks dropping down two inches from start, grunt, and think they've done a squat! [​IMG]

    However, in the powerlifting world, you'll know if the squat was deep enough when you rack the weights and see at least 2 out of 3 green lights from the judges!

    But, there is a danger for folks doing "full" squats improperly. A squat is ONLY good if it's done properly. SO before anyone jumps off and tries to "go deep" in the name of "not squatting more than they deadlift", research the mechanics of proper squat technique. Then squat with the techniques that are going to help you achieve your weightlifting goals. If it's not done right, then there is danger of back or knee injuries and overuse - trust me...

    There's olympic squats, power squats, front squats, high-bar versus low-bar squats, etc. Then there's hip alignment, knee extension versus feet placement, and proper warmups, blah, blah. It's more about technique than it is heavy weights, all things being equal. It takes proper technique to go deep.

    Happy squatting... [​IMG]
     
  4. EL_VIEJO

    EL_VIEJO New Member

    <div>
    (MasterCFI @ Feb. 28 2009,7:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But, there is a danger for folks doing &quot;full&quot; squats improperly. A squat is ONLY good if it's done properly. SO before anyone jumps off and tries to &quot;go deep&quot; in the name of &quot;not squatting more than they deadlift&quot;, research the mechanics of proper squat technique. Then squat with the techniques that are going to help you achieve your weightlifting goals. If it's not done right, then there is danger of back or knee injuries and overuse - trust me...</div>
    MasterCFI,

    I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, now-a-days there are plenty of resources available to learn proper technique. From Mark Rippetoe's painstakingly detailed descriptions of the basic barbell exercises in &quot;Starting Strenght: BBT&quot; to excellent websites such as SquatRx.  SquatRx has a series of videos posted on youtube that are absolutely outstanding. The Squat Rx guys should get some kind of award for what they've done. It's that good. They demonstrate proper technique for all the squatting variations that you and xfatman mentioned. So, anybody who desires to squat has ready access to how to do them with proper technique.

    IMHO the reason that people don't squat till they break parallel is the same reason that most people who weight train don't do squats at all. It is gruelingly difficult. The &quot;it's bad for your knees excuse&quot; is nothing more than a justification for not doing them. The purpose of my post was to stir up some sh!t and hopefully motivate those who do squat to re-examine their squat form and try to do a real squat. There's a saying that goes something like this, &quot;There's no zealot like the recently converted&quot;. I'm 57 yrs. old and didn't learn how to do a proper squat until just a few months ago. A forum like this allows me to rant my zealotry to high heaven. [​IMG]

    Something happens when you get to my age. You want to help younger people avoid the mistakes you made. When I see a skinny kid doing triceps kick-backs I want to go over and tell him that he's wasting his time and that he should be doing basic compound exercises until he builds a solid foundation. When I see someone doing those ridiculous 1/4 squats I want to tell him or her the benefits of doing full squats. But I don't, because I have a rule about giving unsolicited advice. However, on an internet forum I can break my own rule and give all the unsolicited advice I want to.  Oops! I'm starting to ramble. (Another symptom of old age).

    You have my utmost respect. Your powerlifting poundages are something that I'll certainly never achieve in this lifetime and serve as a source of inspiration.

    Xfatman, I've said it before - you da man! If any of you newcomers to this forum want some additional inspiration, go back and check out this guy's story. You'll find out what a person is capable of accomplishing when he's determined.
     
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Nothing like a few good examples:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjfEnUT2A-g - Chakarov's almost unbelievable high-bar back squat. Amazing flexibility. I watch this and weep!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKEl4Wxoqc - Coach Ripp's low-bar back squat.

    I'm using the low-bar variant for all my back squats now. I got fed up with losing all the skin off my neck from high-bar squatting. Right now, I think I'm dropping a bit deeper than coach in the vid. Now that I have lost a bunch of weight I am definitely able to drop deeper into the hole without losing form. It makes it harder but I feel stronger coming out of the hole and less inclined to tip forward, which is when all the lower-back/back-extension issues start. I'd rather use a little less load but maintain really good form for all but my most difficult reps.
     
  6. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    Wow! Thank you for posting the Rippitoe Squat videos. I had not seen those before. This is the first time I've understood what Rip is talking about when he says &quot;Hip Drive&quot;. I'm gonna try that next week (I've got two squat sessions planned for next week).

    Now all that remains (that I know about so far...) is learning the distinction between a High Bar Squat and a Low Bar Squat. I've heard the terms, but I've never seen a video -- or even a diagram -- that shows the difference. Can somebody point me to a reference work so that I learn about High Bar and Low Bar squats?
     
  7. EL_VIEJO

    EL_VIEJO New Member

    <div>
    (TunnelRat @ Feb. 28 2009,10:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Can somebody point me to a reference work so that I learn about High Bar and Low Bar squats?</div>
    TR,

    &quot;Starting Strenght: BBT&quot; for one source. It might also be explained on the Starting Strength Wiki. But to give you a short description it's like this - The high bar position is high on the traps. The place where most people will automatically position the bar. The low bar position is with the bar just below the scapular spine. It's not resting on bone because you pinch your shoulder blades together and force your elbows back and towards each other. Also use a thumbless grip with straight wrists. Place your hands as close towards your shoulders as your flexibility allows. This pulls everything together tight. The bar is not resting in your hands at all. It's trapped between hands and upper back.

    Come to think of it. I think SquatRx explains this also. Definitely check out SquatRx's video series. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C03D688F10C4DE1F

    Website - http://squatrx.blogspot.com/
     
  8. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (EL_VIEJO @ Mar. 01 2009,6:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The high bar position is high on the traps. The place where most people will automatically position the bar. The low bar position is with the bar just below the scapular spine. It's not resting on bone because you pinch your shoulder blades together and force your elbows back and towards each other. Also use a thumbless grip with straight wrists.
    ...

    Come to think of it. I think SquatRx explains this also. Definitely check out SquatRx's video series. http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C03D688F10C4DE1F</div>
    Interesting: SquatRX #4 video points out the distinction between the high and low bar position -- even as you have described it.

    Having watched the video over and over, I really can't see much of a discernible difference between the two. I conclude that I'll probably have to find a coach who is able to show me &quot;hands on&quot; until I get it.

    Sorry, slow learner here...
     
  9. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    TunnelRat

    Here is a copy of my post in another forum. However, if you do both types of squats -high bar on the traps and low bar (powerlift) squat, you will FEEL a huge difference in balance, how the weight feels on the traps versus the &quot;shoulder blade' area, etc. Here's my post:

    The biggest differences between the two, in gym english:

    1. You'll notice that you can lift more weight with the low-bar squat - simply because of the positioning of the bar and the fact that the weight has a lower center of gravity. You won't be fighting balance issues as much. The weight of the bar is distributed across more of your back than on a high-bar squat.

    2. Your traps will hurt with a heavy, high-bar squat if they aren't developed. Like I said in number one - the traps will bear the brunt of the bar weight. (more weight in a smaller area)


    Also, once someone shows you the difference - you'll see and feel it immediately!

    Happy squatting!
     
  10. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Ya mean we're not supposed ta &quot;curtsey&quot;? [​IMG]
    I let go of squats for a while to persue deads with a vengeance, while changing over to PL style workouts. Now my deads are WAAAAAAY ahead of the lessened and meandering squats that I'm using for an accessory exersize for my deads (and it's working...) and I'll end up even more unbalanced if I don't start squatting heavier soon.
    I still have the flexibility problem that stretching isn't working on, but I'm happy enough with the position of the bar after I &quot;shuck&quot; it back a couple times. After a squat set, I can barely let go of the bar and back out; the shoulders hurt so much.
    I'll start back up after I plateau on the deads. This new territory is SO much fun...5 pr's in a row and still going strong.
     
  11. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ New Member

    There isn't much difference between my low bar and high bar squats, maybe 10-20lbs more at the most.
    Not sure though, but I did 315x7 on olympic squats last year just for fun with 1 rep in the tank and my best low bar at the time to the same depth was 315x8, with maybe a 9th, but it wouldn't be sure thing

    And that's with no practise on high bar, I didn't even warm up on high bar in that session.
     

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