Testosterone levels + other stuff

LittleBigHorn

New Member
Ok, a couple weeks ago I had a comprehensive blood test done to determine my testosterone levels and other stuff (such as thyroid function etc). They forgot to measure my free testosterone, so I'm going to have to go back and get that done again. Oh yeah, and I'm a 22 year old man who is at least superficially healthy.

I have for a long time now noticed that I seem to have hit some sort of plateu, or peak, in my muscular development. I'm still making some strength gains in a few of my lifts (though several have completely plateaued, or worse, started to go down), but as I looked at a couple of pics taken about 2 years ago and compared how I looked in them versus how I look today, I came to notice that my body composition/physique has changed very little, if at all.

I've tried both cutting/bulking phases, and controlled slow bulking over a longer period of time, and I've always aspired to stay on the cutting edge of the newest advances in bodybuilding science (so I can't really be accused of sticking with a bad workout plan or diet that doesn't work). One of the recent changes I incorporated into my HST regimen was the replacement of the SD with a deloading period, inspired by Lyle MacDonald's advice, and so far it seems to be working. Since I can't seem to make any more muscle gains (if I up the calories, I end up gaining mass that is 100% pure fat), the deload serves to better preserve what strength gains I may have made during the HST cycle.

So anyway, the tests came back, and apparently my thyroid function is A-OK, pretty much smack in the middle of the normal range. However, my total testosterone was definitely on the low side (at least in my opinion), only clocking in at 17.95 nmol/L, or 517 ng/dl. That's below average, if the internet can be trusted when it states that the median average for young, healthy men is around 600. And when you consider the fact that average young men consume excessive amounts of alcohol, don't exercise enough, and eat an unhealthy diet (all of which contribute to diminished T levels), it's like a slap in the face for a health conscious individual like myself to find out he falls in the lower average bracket. If Joe Sixpack with an unhealthy lifestyle started to eat and work out like I do, his test levels would probably improve significantly over mine.

I've heard from several sources that for a strength athlete or bodybuilder, testosterone levels of 600 and up would be necessary for optimal progress and development. How am I supposed to make decent progress when my nuts are dead set on keeping me an average joe?

In fact, I actually would have preferred that my T-levels would have been even lower, so I could get a prescription for Androgel or T-injections, and say '**** you' to my lousy genetics.

... just blowing off a little steam there.
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Not the kind of macho steam a high testosterone man blows off by speeding with his sports car and yelling obscene things to every woman he passes, but rather the kind of steam a low average testosterone man blows off in his fit of cortisol induced stress.
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Ok, granted, I went to the blood test on an empty stomach (12 hours of fasting, required because of certain other factors that I needed to get tested), and it was the darkest time of year (during which a man's testosterone levels may be less than optimal), but still.. insufficient T is insufficient T.

I'd have no complaints if I was, say, 50 years old and got a result like this, or if I was willing to pidgeonhole myself into a social role such as a 'sensitive girly man who is good with kids and likes to hold hands', but that would create a huge conflict with my inner macho man who insists that I become an intimidating mound of muscle, one way or another.

For years I've been trying to figure out why I've made such slow progress in spite of doing everything right, and now I have the answer. It's easy for men who have either naturally or artificially high levels of testosterone to say that "you just gotta lift big and eat big", because their bodies will reward them for any king of workout/ diet that even comes close to creating some sort of anabolic environment for them.

Anyone else struggling with less than optimal T levels, and what kind of progress have you managed to make over the years?
 
Well I should start by saying I'm pretty sure my testesterone levels are fine, but I feel sympathetic to your cause. As far as I'm aware if your eating enough fat and getting enough zinc. There isn't much a guy can do naturally do boost his testerone levels. You think you've reached your genetic maximum at age 22, that would be really impressive, how long have you been training HST? Do you ever miss a workout? Are you always eating overcalorifically? You say any more mass you gain is 100% fat, are you sure, because if it was 70% fat, you could bulk then cut. You say you've trained perfectly, whats your routine been?
 
Tell your doctor to give you hormones, or else you will get them off the streets and become a steroid junkie and it will all be his fault!
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seriously- I wouldn't sweat it too much. Your levels are not too bad, average is average. I have never had mine tested, but based on my huge libido/aggressive persona I think I have higher than average T. It is still hard for me too put on muscle, it is hard for almost everybody. I think blaming slightly lower than average T-levels for everything is silly. Bottom line is this...either you are satisfied being a 'natural' bodybuilder or you are not. Even guys with higher than average T are not going to get HUGE unless they have the genetics/nutrition/training for years all together. And if you are not satisfied, we all know there are alternatives to being 'natural'.
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I think that you need to relax about it, wait 1-2 months, and then get your levels tested again.  One test does not determine your lifetime fate.  Testosterone levels fluctuate throughout the day, never mind seasonally, and even depending upon when you last ejaculated.

Look at this like any other measure of physical condition.  You wouldn't base your assessment of weight gain/loss on two weighings done on consecutive days, you would need several measurements over a longer time period.

I got some blood work done recently and they didn't want to do the free testosterone because it was "kind of expensive," so it doesn't surprise me if they left it out.  There is such a stigma attached to testosterone, anyway, that most doctors don't even want you to get a testosterone test unless they have reason to suspect deficiency.
 
Style, that's just it.. my T levels could be considered 'fine', too, and they are fine for the purpose of existing and leading a fairly healthy life (at least up until andropause hits when I'm middle aged, and the T levels plummet to near castrate levels
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), but they're just not sufficient for building muscle.

When I said I think I've reached the end of my genetic potential, I meant that I haven't really gotten that big, and yet my gains have all but stopped. I've tried a myriad of different ways of boosting through what I always thought was just a plateau, but now I'm starting to think that this is simply my body's way of saying "I can't build any more muscle with this amount of testosterone, so stop asking for more". I mean sure, I could perhaps go on a crazy bulk and manage to gain a little extra muscle along with the fat gains, but I'd end up in a +/- 0 situation at best when I'd cut that fat down and lose what muscle I gained in the process (I've noticed that my test levels really plummet when I go on a cutter.. I mean I practically go impotent). That's how it's been these past few years when I've tried to bulk and then cut.. I end up putting on some weight, then lose it during a cutter, and end up more or less at the exact same weight and general appearance I was at before I started bulking, i.e. no net gain made.

I eat plenty of good fats, including omega 3's and 6's, and I try to get some red meat in every now and then too for that extra boost. I also eat a zinc supplement (though I must confess I haven't taken any in about 2 weeks.. I just forget sometimes, and it also messes up my stomach).

My workout routine is a somewhat tweaked version of HST.. kind of a HST/strength program hybrid. It's been fine tuned over the years and I've changed several aspects of it.. it seems to be working decently. And no, I haven't been missing any workouts in as long as I can remember, and I live a fairly low stress lifestyle. I haven't been overtraining, either.
Currently I'm eating slightly above maintenance, since I've had poor success with seperate cutting and bulking phases in the past.

Scientific Muscle, thanks for your input.
However, I'm afraid most doctors here will tell a young man with a test level of 300 that he is within the normal range (and thus not eligible for test replacement), even though his test level matches that of an average 80 year old. Good luck trying to get them to prescribe test to someone who has a natural output of 517 and wants to get to the upper average range in order to make better gains in his weight lifting.
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The guilt angle might be worth a shot, though.. or maybe I'll threaten to get my steroids from questionable sources, and then come and kick down the door of his house during a fit of roid rage.
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IF (and this is a big if) I were to go the hormone highway some day, how easy would it be to maintain the gains I made if I only did moderate cycles, and took proper care of post cycle recovery?
It's just that I don't really look forward to lifting another 10 years only to gain 2 pounds of extra muscle and 5 pounds on my bench press (that seems to be the general direction I'm headed)..

Another thing that came to mind is that in the past, I've done several cycles of antidepressants (haven't touched them in a year or so, though). I only recently became aware of the fact that many of them have been shown to lower your free testosterone levels quite significantly (the suspected culprit behind the common side effect of lost libido).. I'm wondering if they might have permanently messed up my T production, since I used to take them for extended periods of time?

All in all, I don't think people realize what a profound impact the differences between individuals' T levels can have on their success as bodybuilders. When a man struggles to make gains, he will probably be accused of not being motivated/dedicated enough, or that he has a bad workout regime/diet, when the real reason may in fact be biological and very easy to identify.

I mean think about it, if a man can have testosterone levels three times higher than another man and still fall within the normal range, which one of them is going to struggle with making gains, and which one is going to be eating like ****, smoking, drinking and neglecting his workouts, only to build an impressive physique in no time at all?
 
Ruthenian, just out of curiosity, what were your T levels, if you don't mind me asking? Also, do you know how wide the range is that a man's T fluctuates in?
 
My T levels were like yours, not low enough to warrant help, but I can get it legally if I want. It's my GH and IGF-1 factors that were low, and that's REALLY expensive to fix. For me to do extra test legally, it wouldn't make enough of a difference to warrant the expense, albeit less than GH.
I make gains, but it's a lot of hard work, eating, and hit or miss propositions. I'm slowly finding out what works for me and what doesn't; which would probably be something else for you. Damn the law...at least we had superdrol that worked without sides, or M1T that did, but had large results for a while. And if the roids' were legal, no prohormones would have been necessary. If any of your BB supply stores where you live have any pro's left, it's legal for them to sell them to you. You still need PCT with them tho.
I got NO results with any overthecounter products, including trib. - if you have money, why not try to find an aging clinic. They have docs more 'in the know' and will give you help up to legal standards at least. Young as you are, we'd all suspect something else, but you seem to have covered all that. Maybe there's a med you're taking that's interfering? (like epilepsy drugs?) What is your estrodiol? That can be the culprit too, from what I've read.
 
Quadancer, now there's a novel idea.. going to an anti aging clinic at the age of 22.
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I never had my estradiol, IGF-1 or GH levels checked. It would probably be a good idea to cover all of them as well, just to make sure there's nothing funny going on there.

I actually had a stack of transdermal 1-test/4-AD that I had ordered from an online store (back when prohormones were still legal), but I never got around to using it, and instead gave it to a friend of mine. I guess the potential side effects held me back, though they would likely have been minimal, in retrospect.

Just another example of society's double standards.. you can poison yourself silly with alcohol, and ruin your health in a myriad of other completely legal ways, yet these substances that (if used correctly) can vastly improve the quality of your life are criminalized, and the people who use them are portrayed as some sort of freaks.

I'm currently not taking any medications. The only ones I have ever taken, as a matter of fact, are antidepressants, and I haven't touched them in over a year now.

BTW, just so I understood this right, you had test levels similar to me at my age, or at your current age?

The thing here is, if this is indeed my average test level (as opposed to the lowest or one of the lower readings I'd get if I measured often, at diffent times of the year), it's just not sufficient. I've always been kind of a low energy guy.. I just don't seem to have enough of a spark of life in me to get through the day, never mind trying to compete in society's rat race for the spot at the top. It all just seems so futile and meaningless. Hell, I don't even have enough of a sex drive to actively go out and chase women (which is exactly what most of my free time should revolve around at the age of 22), and that's a shame, since the few times that I do manage to drag my a$$ out to a nightclub, women approach me all the time. I like to think I'm a decent looking guy, and if I had a normal sex drive, I could have some fun.

Since I didn't get my free T levels checked, in spite of requesting them, that reading may be even lower in proportion to my total T. We'll see once I go get another blood test.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm whining, and I'm trying not to take my situation too seriously, but something is obviously wrong, and it reflects on more areas of my life than just weight lifting.
 
A fair question, but I am at work and can’t spend the time to get exact numbers right now.  There is plenty of stuff out there that states a fluctuation occurs in general terms. Some things I do know:

(1) The Japanese study on ejaculatory effects found fluctuation of up to 47% from the baseline levels.
 
(2) Quote from an article on diagnosing andropause:

“Another dilemma is that testosterone levels can vary during the course of a day. Frequent sampling of testosterone in a study of 20 healthy men (17) revealed levels ranging from 105 to 1,316 ng/dL (3.64 to 45.67 nmol/L).”

The author does not cite the source of this data, but it appears to be from this article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez...._DocSum

Unfortunately, I cannot say what the variation was for each individual subject without reviewing the full article.

(3)  Here is a graph from a study in 1974 showing diurnal fluctuation in test levels.  Note that they fluctuate in a range of 60% around the mean!!


uploaded_test%20flux.JPG


FYI, here is a link to an article abstract indicating that fasting affects test levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....bstract

The point being that one test is, at most, only a ballpark number.   That said, in your shoes I would consider that test low at 22 and would definitely want some follow-up to see what kind of fluctuations there are.   From the information above, however, it appears that your true average could be as much as 40% different.  Maybe not, but at this point you just don’t know.

My level was 577.  I would like higher, but I don’t consider one test the final answer.  I suspect that it isn’t bad at 47, either.  In fact, if someone has a link to a good graph/table of normal age-adjusted test levels, I would love to see it.  I found an article that had the following graph, but according to this my levels are through the roof, so I think that their data is suspect (though I will admit to being hornier than a two-peckered goat)  BTW, conversion factor for ng/dL to nmol/L is 0.0347.

uploaded_Age-adjusted.JPG


From what I remember, Quad’s number was even higher, and he is 53 (I think).
 
Yes I am, and it's been a slow, natural decline down to the lower numbers. But the kicker is that they told me that there ARE guys/girls who are in their 20's who decline in hormones early, and are treated by the clinics.
I didn't know there was that much fluctuation, though, and they didn't tell me of course, since they are in the business of selling hormones. I thought my numbers were really pretty high for a guy who feels this fatigued, this ambivalent about sex...who used to get horny at the crack of dawn!
My estradiol was okay, just a bit high, but if you have it too high, an anti-E like 6-oxy or better yet, nolvadex I'm told will allow you more test by suppression of the estrogen. That's cheap and legal, so that's why I said get the estra tested. The high estrogen is supposed to make you feel just like low test. It's the opposite for women.
Remember, I'm not an expert; I just went through some study and tests myself.
 
Thanks for the replies, dudes.
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Here's my plan of action for my next blood test:
I'll wake up early and eat a hearty breakfast (as opposed to fasting, which I was required to do last time around). I'll also try to get some light therapy in on the day before (with one of those lamps that mimics natural light) as well as getting a good night's sleep. If I still get a T reading on the lower side, I'll have to conclude that it's not going to get significantly higher, probably not even during the summer.
That estradiol thing sounds like something worth investigating. I don't have massive amounts of bodyfat (I think I'm around 14-15% or so), but I understand excessive aromatization can occur even at lower BF numbers, though it is probably rare.

Ruthenian, I'd say that for a 47 year man, your T levels are above average. 570 is a pretty good amount. I think I might be willing to settle for 570 at my age, and if I still had that much T at your age, I'd be a happy camper!
 
That sounds like a good plan, LBH.  I don't know what time of day you got your last test, but pretty much all the research protocols I have read take the readings first thing in the morning.  I remember reading somewhere that test levels are highest around 5 a.m.

From my own personal experience, I would say that sleep is also key -- make sure that you are well rested.  And let us know what happens.  Good luck!  
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All this has made me curious about my own levels over a daily cycle.  I think I might try to get two tests done in the same day:  one in the morning and one in the afternoon.  Might be instructive.
 
<div>
(LittleBigHorn @ Jan. 12 2007,13:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So anyway, the tests came back, and apparently my thyroid function is A-OK, pretty much smack in the middle of the normal range. However, my total testosterone was definitely on the low side (at least in my opinion), only clocking in at 17.95 nmol/L, or 517 ng/dl. That's below average, if the internet can be trusted when it states that the median average for young, healthy men is around 600.</div>
Hey Bud, 517 is definately not below average. After dealing with the Doctor on this for the past year, low is considered under 300. My urologist assured me most men reside in the 400 range and 500+ was typically considered high levels. He wanted to get mine in the 400-450 range. Levels higher than 550-600 begin to work against you as some type of conversion takes place, which I can't expound upon. I know you can have high T levels, but there is something about them be available to be used, and If they are not, you can have levels fo 1300 and still not get results.

Also, muscle mass is more than just T levels, even when your doing everything right. Training, Diet and Intensity all play big parts. Not to say your doing those things, but it's never just &quot;one thing&quot;.

Cheers
 
Hey LBH the reference ranges for testosterone levels are always in relation to a fasted state . . .so if you get tested after eating the results will be meaningless. Just get tested again in the same way in another couple of months and take it from there. Get estradiol tested too, although generally the more T you have, the more E you have since it's a byproduct of T . .unless you take an anti-aromitase like arimidex.
 
Also, there has been talk that some men may have a monthly (or 28 day?) cycle of T levels going on . . not sure how evident it is though. But it may be worth getting your next (fasted!) test done at a relatively different time of the month just in case.
 
Berserk,  could you support that statement on development of test reference levels with some references or links?  Since most of the scientific studies are done with early morning tests, it is not hard to imagine that any reference levels derived from these studies are, at least, without breakfast.  However, are they done with a full 12 hour fast, as is standard for a lipids profile and is apparently what LBH did?

My understanding on the general reference levels provided by commercial labs is that they are merely based upon the population of test results they have generated. Of course, this lack of controls makes getting age-adjusted references from commercial labs nearly impossible.
 
Jonpaul,
how old are you, if you don't mind me asking? It's just that levels below 500 may be normal and even expected for men in their 40's - 60's. My lab test gave me a reference range of 14 nmol - 36 nmol (400 - 1028), which would place my T levels at the very bottom of the normal range. And mind you, the reference range was for men of all ages, so you'd expect young, healthy guys to be in the 19 - 30 range (with some exceptional men scoring even higher).
But you're right.. making gains is about more than testosterone. If it was all about T, women wouldn't be able to make any kind of gains! Of course other hormones such as GH etc also play a big role (not to mention nutrition, training, lifestyle etc), but at the end of the day, testosterone is probably the single most deciding factor that determines how fast you'll pack on muscle, lose fat, and how big you can ultimately get.

BTW, what are your nationalities? Maybe the levels the guys in this thread are reporting are a representation of the average American T level.
Perhaps your status as citizens of the world's leading superpower (even if it is currently not exactly the most popular and well liked nation) subconsciously raises your collective T levels to above average heights?
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What really bummed me out was a study I read yesterday, in which the effects of depression on the gonadal functioning of men had been tested. There were two focus groups; one consisting of men experiencing moderate to severe depression, and the other consisting of healthy, non depressed men. It was concluded that moderate to severe depression had a pronounced suppressing effect on the pulsatile LH secretion that normally occurs during the night. Normal, healthy men tend to have peak T levels when they wake up, and those levels slowly decline towards the evening. Severely depressed men, on the other hand, have markedly lower levels during the day and especially during the night, since their LH and testosterone secretion is disturbed. In effect, their hormonal functioning is actually higher in the daytime and evening. Men who were only slightly depressed showed no statistically significant difference in their hormonal levels when compared to their healthy counterparts.

Now, I can't say I'm depressed at the moment, at least not severely (not counting a slight winter blues, but that's to be expected during this time of year). I've had bad episodes, and I always wondered why I woke up feeling like crap (now we have an explanation to what causes severely depressed people, especially men, to feel worse in the morning, and gradually better towards evening).

The point of all this was that both groups of men ranged in age from 45 - 80, or something like that. The healthy group had an average mean T level of 17.65 nmol! That's pretty much my T level exactly (well, mine was slightly higher at 17.95), and I'm 22! I'm not currently depressed, so that can be ruled out as a factor that could be lowering my T levels. So basically I have the testosterone levels of a middle aged or old man.
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Unless they somehow managed to only pick individuals that have higher than average T levels for the healthy group (not very likely).

Berserk, are you sure you're supposed to get your T levels checked in a fasted state? It's just that they specified it was needed because I was also getting my blood glucose levels tested.. they didn't say it would have been needed for the other stuff (testosterone, thyroid hormones etc). And I have to say my head was aching and I felt pretty exhausted from not eating by the time I was getting my blood drawn.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My understanding on the general reference levels provided by commercial labs is that they are merely based upon the population of test results they have generated. Of course, this lack of controls makes getting age-adjusted references from commercial labs nearly impossible. </div>

Could be. However, if the study I read (the depression thing) counts for anything, at least your testosterone levels at 570 are higher than average for your age, based on the average mean level for healthy men aged 45-80 being 17.65, or 504.
 
Can't find any links yet . . .it probably varies from lab to lab anyway. I distinctly recall my doctor telling me the results would be meaningless unless I was fasted. However, I have always had my glucose checked in the same test. It may be that I was thinking about T levels and E levels, but he was referring to the glucose side of things.

Surely fasting would still be the most consistent way of checking almost everything though.
 
Some one needs to get access to the Massachusetts Male Aging Study (MMAS).  This is apparently the most comprehensive study of these issues in America.  For instance, here is a link to an article abstract proposing age-adjusted test levels.  MMAS Age Levels. Unfortunately for LBH, this study starts with men in their 40s, as it is mainly concerned with what happens later in life.

Once again, it seems that the medical community is afraid of testosterone.  I mean, their proposed &quot;low&quot; level is the bottom 2.5%.  This means that you are supposed to consider your test &quot;normal&quot; if 97.5% of men have higher levels.  (about 2 standard deviations from the mean)

I'll see if I can come up with more from the MMAS.  Note that the readings were taken non-fasting.
 
Interesting study.. thanks for posting, Ruthenian!
Too bad it only pertains to middle aged and older men.
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I have to say this came as quite a surprise to me:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chronic disease and high BMI significantly decreased whereas smoking tended to increase total, free and bio-available T concentrations. </div>

I wonder what the mechanism is behind that (other than nicotine being some sort of partition agent and appetite suppressant, which would only be indirectly tied to T levels by helping keep smokers lean)? One would naturally assume that smoking would lower a man's T levels.

But then again, back when I smoked cigarettes as a teenager, I was one horny summabitch (what teenager isn't, though?
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). Maybe I should take up the habit again. j/k
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