The Forgotten Bodybuilding Nutrient

[imported_hjcooper]

Vitamin A: The Forgotten Bodybuilding Nutrient
Article on the importance of vitamin A on testosterone production. Importance of vit A on protein synthesis and in high-protein diets. Can it really be as effective as testosterone precursors? Interesting to say the least. Some studies are cited.

Best sources: liver, egg yolks, full-fat milk, butter from grass-fed cows and cod liver oil. REAL food! That's what I'm talkin' about!

According to this article Vitamin A Saga, vegetable sources (e.g. beta carotene) are not equivalent to animal sources.

 

[baby a]

Yeah, I heard tha Ronnie Coleman said that he owes all of his Olympia titles to carrots.....

Sorry, but it's not that easy.

 

[baby a]

dbl post....

 

[imported_hjcooper]

Now, now. The point is not that vit A is a silver bullet or even compares to steroids for bodybuilding, just that it is an overlooked nutrient that has potential in optimizing hypertrophy through various scientifically explored effects. If you're a natural bodybuilder trying to maximize gains then you might want to make sure you're getting plenty of vit A to minimize depletion, maximize test production and maximize protein synthesis. And according to some sources it needs to come from animal sources (retinol), not vegetable (carotenes). So, yeah, carrots don't cut it

Everyone wants to optimize and tweak their workouts for maximum hypertrophy. Well, it's just as important to optimize and tweak your diet for maximum hypertrophy. Giving 100% to your workout and only 50% to diet will not give you optimal gains

 

[xahrx]

One of my exgirlfriends works at a pharmacy, and one of the things they see occasionally is people ODing on vitamin A. It's not too hard to hit toxic levels, so anyone who wants to use it, watch yourself and look up proper dosing.

 

[imported_hjcooper]

that's right. That's why, according to the articles, it's better to get your A from REAL food sources. Vit A toxicity is from overdosing on synthetic A vitamin pills (or eating too much polar bear liver ). You don't want to be taking pills for your A. The articles discuss all this too. Read the articles.

 

[Aaron_F]

 

[rowdy]

According to one quote in the article, taking 60,000 IU daily for a few weeks will be toxic. Looking in a local shop the max Vit A (not beta-carotene) supplement I saw had 2,500 IU. So unless your popping alot of pills and eating your polar beer liver, it would seem reaching toxicity levels isnt that easily done.

The thing is, who eats liver these days anymore? My mum told me they use to eat it back when she was a child. I think I may have had it like once as a kid. And with all the low-fat stuff about, perhaps a Vit A supplement would be handy.

On the other hand, I have taken a course of Roaccutane, which is basically massive doses of Vit A from what my Doc told me. Dont know how much exactly. But beforehand and during, the Doc had to run blood tests to ensure my liver (or was it kidneys??..) was handling it all ok. I wonder how much Vit A was in each dose?

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (hjcooper @ Feb. 21 2005,3:40)]Read the articles.

dont believe everything that comes from weston price

 

[imported_hjcooper]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Feb. 22 2005,2:45)]dont believe everything that comes from weston price

With all due respect to you, you have really added nothing to this discussion. Price is not the author of either article. And of course one shouldn't believe everything written by anybody. Not even everything written by Bryan himself. So of course you shouldn't base your entire nutritional program on two little articles. What's your point? Why do I have to spell that out? I assume the people on this site are intelligent! They are going to build up their knowledge base from reading a bunch of different sources, pro and con, and come to the best logical conclusions they can. The articles are just more data with interesting implications backed up by some interesting science. And yes they reference actual studies and experiments (isn't that the mantra I see on this site all the time "where are the references?&quot.

Now, you could contribute positively to this discussion if you looked up the studies referenced and gave us a critique on them - are they valid or not? Are there other studies that refute these? Do you happen to be scientifically trained (seriously, no sarcasm intented)? Unfortunately I'm not a scientist myself so I have to rely on secondhand reports and reading lots of material.

Price, I believe, has been dead for a while. Yes he did have some rather controversial theories but no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And the articles are not about his theories anyway, they are about vit A.

The second article, for those interested, is written by Mary Enig PhD. She is a lipid (fats and oils) biochemist. She authored the book Know Your Fats : The Complete Primer for Understanding the Nutrition of Fats, Oils and Cholesterol which is, in my opinion, mandatory reading for anyone serious about nutrition. [Disclaimer for Aaron_F: You don't have to believe everything in the book, and, of course, afterwards check out other sources too! ]  

 

[Aaron_F]

Mary Enig? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah
bleh
Vitamin A is not the forgotten bbing nutrient, i doubt if there is many bodybuilders who are not getting adequate quantities of this.
but lets see
Vitamin A and testosterone - wow, its involved with testosterone levels. Wow rat studies, guinea pigs, and kids. The kids study is interesting... stunting/wasting is common within areas of low energy, protein, and micronutrient intake (zinc, iron, vitamin a amongst others) and the stunting/wasting maintains for life.
To claim this trial as showing the effect of vitamin a on growth rates, and try and associate that with testosterone is complete and utter garbage. It was a trial of increasing vitamin a AND iron, on a group of children who were eating vastly below the levels of vitamin a, iron and zinc. (and more than likely far more nutrients than just that).
What the research shows is not correcting nutrient intakes, and adding testosterone into the mix, you will get as good as growth as you can by correcting nutrient deficiencies.
Vitamin A and prostate cancer - and this has what to do with bodybuilders? and a rat study, wow.
Vitamin A and protein utilization - I like the "Several animal studies have shown that liver reserves of vitamin A are depleted by a high dietary intake of protein" but then he fails to reference any of them. But wow, rat and in vitro research
then goes into the typical "eat your liver" side of things
I do like this however

Quote[/b] ]Exercises that elicit a high demand for testosterone, such as squats and deadlifts, are often recommended for muscle growth, but without vitamin A the body cannot meet that demand for testosterone.

Squats and deadlifts DEMAND more testosterone? i would loooove to see the research on that one
My squats this morning were demanding that I feed them testosterone... i just didnt have any to spare

 

[Cliner9er]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Feb. 23 2005,3:45)]Mary Enig?  hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah
bleh
Vitamin A is not the forgotten bbing nutrient, i doubt if there is many bodybuilders who are not getting adequate quantities of this.
but lets see
Vitamin A and testosterone - wow, its involved with testosterone levels.  Wow rat studies, guinea pigs, and kids.  The kids study is interesting...  stunting/wasting is common within areas of low energy, protein, and micronutrient intake  (zinc, iron, vitamin a amongst others) and the stunting/wasting maintains for life.  
To claim this trial as showing the effect of vitamin a on growth rates, and try and associate that with testosterone is complete and utter garbage.  It was a trial of increasing vitamin a AND iron, on a group of children who were eating vastly below the levels of vitamin a, iron and zinc.  (and more than likely far more nutrients than just that).  
What the research shows is not correcting nutrient intakes, and adding testosterone into the mix, you will get as good as growth as you can by correcting nutrient deficiencies.
Vitamin A and prostate cancer - and this has what to do with bodybuilders?  and a rat study, wow.
Vitamin A and protein utilization - I like the "Several animal studies have shown that liver reserves of vitamin A are depleted by a high dietary intake of protein" but then he fails to reference any of them.  But wow, rat and in vitro research
then goes into the typical "eat your liver" side of things
I do like this however  

Quote[/b] ]Exercises that elicit a high demand for testosterone, such as squats and deadlifts, are often recommended for muscle growth, but without vitamin A the body cannot meet that demand for testosterone.

Squats and deadlifts DEMAND more testosterone?  i would loooove to see the research on that one
My squats this morning were demanding that I feed them testosterone... i just didnt have any to spare

eck, the typical deficiency model for supplementation. Jerk offs like Conte et al. have been manipulating data like this for years.

 

[imported_hjcooper]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Feb. 23 2005,3:45)]Mary Enig?

You're right, she's just a PhD lipid biochemist (with contrarian views on the "politics" of fat in the food industry). You however are an "HST Expert"
 
Anyway, thanks for your last post - less the condescension, sarcasm, and hyperbole - some useful points.

Quote[/b] ]i doubt if there is many bodybuilders who are not getting adequate quantities of this.

Quite valid opinion. It's possible if they avoid certain "A" animal fats (whole milk, egg yolks, liver, etc) which I bet is not so uncommon, and if they don't take supps, or maybe if their supps only contain caretenoids instead of "real" A (retinols). I discovered that to be the case with my supps - beta carotene, no retinol. Is retinol really better than beta carotene? Just my opinion, but I think it's better to get a nutrient directly rather than to depend on it being converted. What else might you be depleting to do the conversion? Is it big deal anyway or micro-tweak? Whole foods are generally better than supps. You get all kinds of micronutrients and cofactors that they can't or just don't put into pills.

Quote[/b] ]Wow rat studies, guinea pigs, and kids.

wow, chicken wings stretched by weights! But point taken. There are lots of studies with human trainees, but they always seem to be newbies, they mostly (all?) use only single isolation exercise, and they are hardly conclusive at this point. But  better than rats and chickens!

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Exercises that elicit a high demand for testosterone, such as squats and deadlifts, are often recommended for muscle growth, but without vitamin A the body cannot meet that demand for testosterone.

Squats and deadlifts DEMAND more testosterone?

Disingenuous. You ignore the key word 'elicit'. Although the sentence is still awkward, you know what was meant. I know you don't really believe that, say, curls 'elicit' more testosterone that squats

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (hjcooper @ Feb. 24 2005,7:49)]You however are an "HST Expert"

I also hang around with phds, masters, (lipid) biochemists, food technologists,  chemists, physiologists, blah blah blah for a living. Being a lipid biochemist or not, does not make Enig any more correct

Quote[/b] ]wow, chicken wings stretched by weights! But point taken. There are lots of studies with human trainees, but they always seem to be newbies, they mostly (all?) use only single isolation exercise, and they are hardly conclusive at this point. But  better than rats and chickens!

Where am I claiming anything about chickens?

Quote[/b] ]Disingenuous. You ignore the key word 'elicit'. Although the sentence is still awkward, you know what was meant. I know you don't really believe that, say, curls 'elicit' more testosterone that squats

In the cotext of the per mm3 muscle group, the effect of curls on testosterone metabolism within the biceps will cause the same effect of squats on its main musclegroups (hip/knee extension).  I can see that your trying to obscure the effect, by using an exercise based around one specific muscle group on a systemic response.
The author was trying to place the effect of certain exercises to testosterone reductions post training period as a demand for testosterone.  It is not the exercise per se that is creating the modulation in testosterone levels, as one can achieve the same results without squats or deadlifts.  
The reason they are often recommended because they enable one to train multiple musclegroups at the same time, enabling a time saving effect, not because of any superiority of testosterone modulation (or growth) and he cannot show that performing squats or deadlifts will produce a difference result (growth or testosterone modulation) than performing other exercises that stress the same muscle groups.

Its also important to note that not all studies show that it lowers test, some say raised and some say no change.  Some also show lowered LH after training (cumulative time) and reduced regularity of LH pulses and most will say raised cortisol. There is at least one paper correlating changes in acute test metabolism with changes in cross sectional area, but only in novice athletes, but thats just pointing out the obvious.