Vegan + Bodybuilding = ?
- Thread starter _tim
- Start date
Yeah, you need to be more careful with the kids with this sort of thing.
Even though it looks like you will not be going vegan, I will say that it is possible to do bodybuilding on a vegan diet. You need to track calories and macronutrients closely, but that is the case for anyone who is serious. I put on some good LBM this last year on a vegan diet. Unfortunately, I had to cut a couple of cycles short due to injuries, so I didn't gain as much as I would have liked. I have now figured out the problem (bad form) and expect to bulk a bit more this year.
Some soy in the diet is not bad. However, there is enough evidence on potential problems to indicate that making it your primary protein source is a bad idea. Pea protein Kirkman Pea Protein is the best single source non-soy vegan protein, but it is closer to a "complete" protein if you mix it 3:1 with brown rice protein.
Even though it looks like you will not be going vegan, I will say that it is possible to do bodybuilding on a vegan diet. You need to track calories and macronutrients closely, but that is the case for anyone who is serious. I put on some good LBM this last year on a vegan diet. Unfortunately, I had to cut a couple of cycles short due to injuries, so I didn't gain as much as I would have liked. I have now figured out the problem (bad form) and expect to bulk a bit more this year.
Some soy in the diet is not bad. However, there is enough evidence on potential problems to indicate that making it your primary protein source is a bad idea. Pea protein Kirkman Pea Protein is the best single source non-soy vegan protein, but it is closer to a "complete" protein if you mix it 3:1 with brown rice protein.
_tim
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Ruthenian! I was hoping someone might counter with a pro-vegan stance. Just out of curiosity, what is your primary protein source? Is it that Pea protein + brown rice protein - and if so, where do you buy it? If I'm being totally honest, I'd never heard that peas nor brown rice were good sources of protein. I really appreciate the info - though we're not going vegan, were going to attempt to improve our diets and eat many more vegetarian/vegan meals. Who knows - over time if it fits us, maybe we can do the 100% vegan diet.
UFGatorDude30
New Member
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Exactly, but even for adults, one would expect them to research thigs and not go blindly into something. I'm sure our friend fruitarian knows where to get what is body needs, he surely does not look like he's lacking much...really. </div>
Wonder where he went? Seems he went on SD and never made it back.. He certainly impressed me though considering his diet... think he hit BW+100 on chins? Yikes. Ok, off the hijack now sorry.
I think you made a good call on the diet Tim. Just taking the good part of the diet at proper times keeps the flaws and dangers away.
Wonder where he went? Seems he went on SD and never made it back.. He certainly impressed me though considering his diet... think he hit BW+100 on chins? Yikes. Ok, off the hijack now sorry.
I think you made a good call on the diet Tim. Just taking the good part of the diet at proper times keeps the flaws and dangers away.
_tim
Well-Known Member
I've been wondering where Fruit is too. (no worries on any kind of hijack, Gator).
Yeah - I've always been the "all things in moderation" type of eater. I just can't see myself 100% going in any one direction. I'm starting to understand how much I need to eat given what I do in the gym (after reading and re-reading and re-reading colby's posts), but to try and do something so completely counter to how I was raised seems wrong. I know that there are additives in the meats we buy that aren't exactly good for you (and I know there is "organic" meat out there but I haven't found it yet). I know that big farms mistreat animals horrifically - and that THAT translates into the quality of the meat we buy. I know that lots of the fruits and veggies we buy have been treated/coated with chemicals to make them look better. I know all of that. I just don't 100% have the resources to counter it, regardless of what kind of diet I choose.
So - I'll do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, add some supplements and see how it goes.
And damnit, I ain't never giving up coffee, no matter what anybody tells me. Same thing goes for steak, red wine, gin and bourbon. I don't drink a ton, but I do drink. I know it all converts to sugar, blah, blah.
IT TASTES GOOD.
Yeah - I've always been the "all things in moderation" type of eater. I just can't see myself 100% going in any one direction. I'm starting to understand how much I need to eat given what I do in the gym (after reading and re-reading and re-reading colby's posts), but to try and do something so completely counter to how I was raised seems wrong. I know that there are additives in the meats we buy that aren't exactly good for you (and I know there is "organic" meat out there but I haven't found it yet). I know that big farms mistreat animals horrifically - and that THAT translates into the quality of the meat we buy. I know that lots of the fruits and veggies we buy have been treated/coated with chemicals to make them look better. I know all of that. I just don't 100% have the resources to counter it, regardless of what kind of diet I choose.
So - I'll do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, add some supplements and see how it goes.
And damnit, I ain't never giving up coffee, no matter what anybody tells me. Same thing goes for steak, red wine, gin and bourbon. I don't drink a ton, but I do drink. I know it all converts to sugar, blah, blah.
IT TASTES GOOD.
Been offline for a while and just catching up on this.
_tim: See my previous post for the pea protein link. The base product is made by a company in Canada -- after all the problems with Chinese-made food lately, I decided to follow this to the source. It looks like the manufacturer only supplies the wholesale market, so you probably can't try the direct route to reduce cost. Sources of brown rice protein are MLO or Nutribiotic (expensive). My analysis of the protein composition is based upon the PDCAAS protein profile used by WHO.
It is difficult to get the kind of protein intake typically recommended (1 gm/lb-body wt) for bodybuilders -- without also getting too many calories -- while on a strict vegan diet without protein supplementation. Not necessarily impossible, but not that easy either. Thus, protein shakes typically constitute 1/3-1/2 of my protein intake. It might be possible to do it otherwise, but with time short and the rest of my family not being vegan, I just haven't put forth the effort to do it all with whole foods. Soy products help here but, again, you need to keep an eye on the phytoestrogens.
Frankly, I don't know how Fruitarian could do it. I don't question his honesty, but fruit is the one vegetarian food where the protein level is so low that you can have protein deficiencies while still eating adequate calories. I have been meaning to ask him to post a sample daily menu -- I have been too lazy to check if such is already on his website. Some raw food vegetarians will allow sprouted grains, but he doesn't appear to go that route. Nuts can help, but that also involves a lot of fat.
_tim: See my previous post for the pea protein link. The base product is made by a company in Canada -- after all the problems with Chinese-made food lately, I decided to follow this to the source. It looks like the manufacturer only supplies the wholesale market, so you probably can't try the direct route to reduce cost. Sources of brown rice protein are MLO or Nutribiotic (expensive). My analysis of the protein composition is based upon the PDCAAS protein profile used by WHO.
It is difficult to get the kind of protein intake typically recommended (1 gm/lb-body wt) for bodybuilders -- without also getting too many calories -- while on a strict vegan diet without protein supplementation. Not necessarily impossible, but not that easy either. Thus, protein shakes typically constitute 1/3-1/2 of my protein intake. It might be possible to do it otherwise, but with time short and the rest of my family not being vegan, I just haven't put forth the effort to do it all with whole foods. Soy products help here but, again, you need to keep an eye on the phytoestrogens.
Frankly, I don't know how Fruitarian could do it. I don't question his honesty, but fruit is the one vegetarian food where the protein level is so low that you can have protein deficiencies while still eating adequate calories. I have been meaning to ask him to post a sample daily menu -- I have been too lazy to check if such is already on his website. Some raw food vegetarians will allow sprouted grains, but he doesn't appear to go that route. Nuts can help, but that also involves a lot of fat.
bgates1654
New Member
www.trueprotein.com is a very reputable protein retailer and now offers some kind of veggie protein (I think its pea). Its cheaper than the whey protein now.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">www.trueprotein.com is a very reputable protein retailer and now offers some kind of veggie protein (I think its pea). Its cheaper than the whey protein now.</div>
Thanks for the link! Much better pricing alternative.
I am guessing that folks on their forums are posting 5% discount codes because they get some kind of credit for people using it? If that is correct, post yours and I will use it.
Thanks for the link! Much better pricing alternative.
I am guessing that folks on their forums are posting 5% discount codes because they get some kind of credit for people using it? If that is correct, post yours and I will use it.
Fausto
HST Expert
Fausto
HST Expert
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Pea protein Kirkman Pea Protein is the best single source non-soy vegan protein, but it is closer to a "complete" protein if you mix it 3:1 with brown rice protein. </div>
Well known fact amongst vegans that complete protein is only achieved by mixing pulses and cereals, the other thing I have heard is that for vit B12, you should swirl warm water with some lemon juice in the morning instead of washing your mouth and swallowing it as the bacteria from your teeth provide enough B12 to sustain one. Variou sources indicate this.
Well known fact amongst vegans that complete protein is only achieved by mixing pulses and cereals, the other thing I have heard is that for vit B12, you should swirl warm water with some lemon juice in the morning instead of washing your mouth and swallowing it as the bacteria from your teeth provide enough B12 to sustain one. Variou sources indicate this.
Fausto
HST Expert
Ruthenian
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Frankly, I don't know how Fruitarian could do it. I don't question his honesty, but fruit is the one vegetarian food where the protein level is so low that you can have protein deficiencies while still eating adequate calories. I have been meaning to ask him to post a sample daily menu -- I have been too lazy to check if such is already on his website. Some raw food vegetarians will allow sprouted grains, but he doesn't appear to go that route. Nuts can help, but that also involves a lot of fat. </div>
Here's a link to the diet and its relative explanation What Is Fruitarianism
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Frankly, I don't know how Fruitarian could do it. I don't question his honesty, but fruit is the one vegetarian food where the protein level is so low that you can have protein deficiencies while still eating adequate calories. I have been meaning to ask him to post a sample daily menu -- I have been too lazy to check if such is already on his website. Some raw food vegetarians will allow sprouted grains, but he doesn't appear to go that route. Nuts can help, but that also involves a lot of fat. </div>
Here's a link to the diet and its relative explanation What Is Fruitarianism
Fausto
HST Expert
Guys
I just found this article by Dr. McDougall about a similar death of an infant apparently fed thw wrong diet by parents resulting in the childs death.
What's amazing is the response of Dr. McDougall to the writer of the article, very interesting and...scientific, read onResponse to NY times article
I just found this article by Dr. McDougall about a similar death of an infant apparently fed thw wrong diet by parents resulting in the childs death.
What's amazing is the response of Dr. McDougall to the writer of the article, very interesting and...scientific, read onResponse to NY times article
TunnelRat
Active Member
<div>
(Fausto @ Sep. 27 2007,06:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What's amazing is the response of Dr. McDougall to the writer of the article, very interesting and...scientific, read onResponse to NY times article</div>
From the article:
"The author and the newspaper should be held accountable. Hopefully, the end result will be that people desiring the truth will take the trouble to look at the evidence."
And:
"the New York Times has done a sloppy job, and damage to the public, by allowing harmful lies to be spread".
Sorry, the New York Times has a long history of this sort of thing. Their sloppy reporting has also allowed harmful lies to be spread with regard to Stalinist Russia, Viet Nam, Iraq, Iran, etc. No one with any sense of responsibility can look to the New York Times as a source of anything more than gossip and innuendo.
(Fausto @ Sep. 27 2007,06:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What's amazing is the response of Dr. McDougall to the writer of the article, very interesting and...scientific, read onResponse to NY times article</div>
From the article:
"The author and the newspaper should be held accountable. Hopefully, the end result will be that people desiring the truth will take the trouble to look at the evidence."
And:
"the New York Times has done a sloppy job, and damage to the public, by allowing harmful lies to be spread".
Sorry, the New York Times has a long history of this sort of thing. Their sloppy reporting has also allowed harmful lies to be spread with regard to Stalinist Russia, Viet Nam, Iraq, Iran, etc. No one with any sense of responsibility can look to the New York Times as a source of anything more than gossip and innuendo.
bgates1654
New Member
To debunk the vegenism does not provide enough protein he states that the protein requirements for humans are based off of rat studies. He says rats milk has 11x the protein concentration of humans. He then goes on to say that plants meet the needs of elephants giraffes etc. and extrapolates that humans being much smaller would be fine too. Well then what about the rats being that much smaller than humans?
To debunk DHA deficiency he says that plants are the source because of ALA. The animals eat it then produce EPA/DHA. He states that humans have no problem converting plant ALA into DHA. IIRC studies have shown that ALA conversion to EPA/DHA is negligable in humans and thus not sufficient.
He then goes on to say that western diet eating mothers pass dangerous contaminants to their babies... well vegan live in the same world and even if they are growing their own food organically, the same environmental contaminats will be in their food.
He even includes the fact that Vitamin B12 is added to pregnant or nursing mothers who have followed a plant based diet strictly... I dont know if I would call that a sufficient diet.
In conclusion, this guy is a quack.
To debunk DHA deficiency he says that plants are the source because of ALA. The animals eat it then produce EPA/DHA. He states that humans have no problem converting plant ALA into DHA. IIRC studies have shown that ALA conversion to EPA/DHA is negligable in humans and thus not sufficient.
He then goes on to say that western diet eating mothers pass dangerous contaminants to their babies... well vegan live in the same world and even if they are growing their own food organically, the same environmental contaminats will be in their food.
He even includes the fact that Vitamin B12 is added to pregnant or nursing mothers who have followed a plant based diet strictly... I dont know if I would call that a sufficient diet.
In conclusion, this guy is a quack.
The Long Run
New Member
I've experimented with being both vegan and lacto-ovo vegetarian. I found that soy protein isolate which would be very tempting for a vegan bodybuilder is actually produced using petroleum based chemicals. To be more specific, a chemical out of gasoline is used to seperate the protein from the fat.
I was completely vegan until I read this about soy isolate. So now I am going to use whey protein again. So I guess that would make me lacto-ovo again?
Oh well, I had missed cheese like crazy anyway!
I was completely vegan until I read this about soy isolate. So now I am going to use whey protein again. So I guess that would make me lacto-ovo again?
Oh well, I had missed cheese like crazy anyway!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was completely vegan until I read this about soy isolate. So now I am going to use whey protein again.</div>
Apparently pea protein isolate is now cheaper than whey. Not quite as complete a protein as soy or whey, but darned close -- a 3:1 mix with brown rice protein gets it even closer. Pure Protein I haven't checked on the extraction method, though.
Though I have made good gains on soy in the past, I get enough soy protein from other sources and now stay away from soy protein powder due to potential phytoestrogen issues.
Like anything, once you haven't had it for a while, you stop missing things like cheese. I do admit, however, that I missed pizza until I figured-out that you could have a perfectly good one without cheese. This works best with good pizza that has plenty of topings -- don't bother trying at Pizza Hut!
Apparently pea protein isolate is now cheaper than whey. Not quite as complete a protein as soy or whey, but darned close -- a 3:1 mix with brown rice protein gets it even closer. Pure Protein I haven't checked on the extraction method, though.
Though I have made good gains on soy in the past, I get enough soy protein from other sources and now stay away from soy protein powder due to potential phytoestrogen issues.
Like anything, once you haven't had it for a while, you stop missing things like cheese. I do admit, however, that I missed pizza until I figured-out that you could have a perfectly good one without cheese. This works best with good pizza that has plenty of topings -- don't bother trying at Pizza Hut!
The Long Run
New Member
I've found such good results with whey I can't turn it down for this upcoming cycle. And already, I've started eating cheese again. YUMMM!!!! hehe
So sorry friend, you're too late.
So sorry friend, you're too late.
I
imported_eric.malitz
Guest
Tim-
You joke about veganism, but maybe you should see what actually goes on in factory farms including egg and milk producers. And do some research about animals and their mental abilities, chickens and cows are both social animals- that should be enough to convince someone who knows anything about evolutionary biology that these animals shouldnt be abused (or killed inhumanely- and no corporate killing of animals is done humanely)
Fausto- Not to criticize, but your church is founded on the same principles of fundamentalism as any other church- only it may have watered down or cherry picked its scriptural borrowings more than normal. What makes you think your church's beliefs are more 'respected' by god?
All religion imposes things, however implicit it may seem.
You joke about veganism, but maybe you should see what actually goes on in factory farms including egg and milk producers. And do some research about animals and their mental abilities, chickens and cows are both social animals- that should be enough to convince someone who knows anything about evolutionary biology that these animals shouldnt be abused (or killed inhumanely- and no corporate killing of animals is done humanely)
Fausto- Not to criticize, but your church is founded on the same principles of fundamentalism as any other church- only it may have watered down or cherry picked its scriptural borrowings more than normal. What makes you think your church's beliefs are more 'respected' by god?
All religion imposes things, however implicit it may seem.