Vets transitioning to lower frequency

beingisbeing

New Member
I think I've seen the more massive of you strapping gentlemen basically say things get to a point with HST where you have to swap out the 3X frequency for higher volume (switching to a 2X a week push pull or upper lower split,something like that)

when does this become necessary?

when it does, how much volume do you actually end up using, how many exercises per body part?

Lcars, Tot, I think you guys use a non standard HST split, for example.
 
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(beingisbeing @ Jul. 24 2008,1:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think I've seen the more massive of you strapping gentlemen  basically say things get to a point with HST where you have to swap out the 3X frequency for higher volume (switching to a 2X a week push pull or upper lower split,something like that)

when does this become necessary?

when it does, how much volume do you actually end up using, how many exercises per body part?

Lcars, Tot, I think you guys use a non standard HST split, for example.</div>
I believe it becomes necessary when recovery becomes a much more important factor. This happens when loads get high for a human being (as a high load is relative to each person's strength). Pushing and pulling loads beyond 200 lbs every other day for a multitude of exercises puts much strain on the body, whether or not the CNS gets &quot;burned out&quot;. This stress can be too much and the muscle may be recovering beyond the 36-48 hour window that HST advocates. Likewise, the simple strain of high loads becomes stressful, this causes a hormonal reaction that can be devastating to the bodybuilder. When the body is stressed, the hormone cortisol is released by the adrenal glands as an inflammatory response. In the short term, it isn't a bad thing, but as these loads become consistent over a longer period of time, the effects of cortisol mount and can have negative effects such as:

Impaired brain performance
Suppressed thyroid function
Blood sugar imbalances such as hyperglycemia
Decreased bone density
Decrease in muscle tissue
Higher blood pressure
Lowered immunity and inflammatory responses in the body, slowed wound healing, and other health consequences
Increased abdominal fat, which is associated with a greater amount of health problems than fat deposited in other areas of the body.

All of these effects are not wanted by anyone, and the bodybuilder is especially concerned with the effects on tissue. Higher stress raises cortisol levels beyond a &quot;good&quot; threshold and this increases adipose tissue and decreases the muscle tissue.

In practice, when some of the HST vets, now including myself, reduce the frequency of some or all of their lifts, you would think that the volume increases to keep constant with prior volume levels. Some people try to do this with Korte's program, 10 x 3 or 5 x 5 routines. IMO, keeping the volume constant is ludicrous as high volume + high load equals high stress. More recovery is then needed - maybe even more recovery than the reduced frequency already allocates. The limiting trend of this result is a strength based HIT program for certain lifts.
 
IMO, the &quot;when&quot; is still going to be when you stop getting results.
For you younger guys, this is a stoppage or slowdown of progress.
For us older guys, it's going backwards, as it's a fulltime job just maintaining.
The changeups can deter some of the training deficiencies Colby mentioned, especially if accompanied by different exersizes.
 
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(colby2152 @ Jul. 24 2008,9:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In the short term, it isn't a bad thing, but as these loads become consistent over a longer period of time, the effects of cortisol mount and can have negative effects such as:

Impaired brain performance</div>
Which goes a long way to explain the bro-logic available on most body building sites...
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Which goes a long way to explain the bro-logic available on most body building sites...
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</div>

hahah!
 
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(TunnelRat @ Jul. 24 2008,12:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ Jul. 24 2008,9:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In the short term, it isn't a bad thing, but as these loads become consistent over a longer period of time, the effects of cortisol mount and can have negative effects such as:

Impaired brain performance</div>
Which goes a long way to explain the bro-logic available on most body building sites...  
smile.gif
</div>
Uhhh, I didn't get it.... [just kidding]
laugh.gif
 
Haha, when I read the title I thought you meant vets as in veterinaries. What, higher frequency for training racing dogs or... ?
 
the volume and amount of exercises i now require to make any progress has made it difficult to do full body workouts. im hoping to go from 1x per week to 2x per week per bodypart. i keep the progressive load as always. the only thing i really miss about hst is deadlifting 3x per week. my dead lifts went through the roof!

although i have done 2 cycles of aas in the past i have almost reached the point where gains have almost come to a halt, this is were you have to dig in and bring some commitment to the game in order to proceed.

fortunatley my determination and motivation for training has never been greater. its balls to the wall or go home!!!!
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as far as volume, a typical monday consists of:

chest

3 sets of flat bench when im cutting i tend to make my 3rd lift as heavy as i can.
3 sets of incline
3 sets of decline
3 sets of fly's

bi's

3 sets zedbar curls
3 sets hammers
3 sets reverse curls
 
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(colby2152 @ Jul. 24 2008,8:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I believe it becomes necessary when recovery becomes a much more important factor.  This happens when loads get high for a human being (as a high load is relative to each person's strength).  Pushing and pulling loads beyond 200 lbs every other day for a multitude of exercises puts much strain on the body, whether or not the CNS gets &quot;burned out&quot;.  This stress can be too much and the muscle may be recovering beyond the 36-48 hour window that HST advocates.  </div>
Exactly...
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(lcars @ Aug. 12 2008,1:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">as far as volume, a typical monday consists of:

chest

3 sets of flat bench when im cutting i tend to make my 3rd lift as heavy as i can.
3 sets of incline
3 sets of decline
3 sets of fly's

bi's

3 sets zedbar curls
3 sets hammers
3 sets reverse curls</div>
thank God I'm nowhere near you lcars, because just reading that list is giving me CNS burnout ;)

incidentally as I'm still cutting, I'm starting to feel that there's way to much bullshit in my routine, from perusing Lyle's forum and some of Blade and Martin's posts. Especially whilst cutting they seem to prefer reduced volume with emphasis on the big three, or equivalent exercises.

I've avoided deadlifting because of patella issues. I started practicing this week, I'm OK thus far, though realizing how weak my lower back and core are is sobering.

Focusing on Bench, Rows and Deads seems smart while cutting, maybe even during a bulk (for a weak beginner like myself anyway) . Maybe throw in BB curls and close grip bench for 2X5 and go the hell home!
 
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(beingisbeing @ Aug. 12 2008,7:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(lcars @ Aug. 12 2008,1:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">as far as volume, a typical monday consists of:

chest

3 sets of flat bench when im cutting i tend to make my 3rd lift as heavy as i can.
3 sets of incline
3 sets of decline
3 sets of fly's

bi's

3 sets zedbar curls
3 sets hammers
3 sets reverse curls</div>
thank God I'm nowhere near you lcars, because just reading that list is giving me CNS burnout ;)

incidentally as I'm still cutting, I'm starting to feel that there's way to much bullshit in my routine, from perusing Lyle's forum and some of Blade and Martin's posts. Especially whilst cutting they seem to prefer reduced volume with emphasis on the big three, or equivalent exercises.

I've avoided deadlifting because of patella issues. I started practicing this week, I'm OK thus far, though realizing how weak my lower back and core are is sobering.

Focusing on Bench, Rows and Deads seems smart while cutting, maybe even during a bulk (for a weak beginner like myself anyway) . Maybe throw in BB curls and close grip bench for 2X5 and go the hell home!</div>
yeah i mean, while your cutting you definitley need to be going heavy.

as stated above, it all depends on your conditioning as far as how much volume you need. i have too many exercises to do a standard hst routine. and sticking to basic exercises aint gonna cut it for me.

however keeping it as simple as you can is the best way to go. only complicate things when its absolutely neccessary.
 
Slight Hijack for lcars...

You mentioned you still do progression with you 1x week frequency. I guess you are increasing the weights on weekly basis?

If so, how much? Even though i know you can lift way more that I can I would just think the submaximal weights wouldn't be beneficial with 1x frequency.

Also, I tried to see if you had a log here to see the rest of your routine. There was no recent log for you would you mind posting the rest of it?

I think I am at point where I have to increase the volume. So, I am trying to get some ideas.

Thanks
 
yeah i think its time i posted a log, ive just been waiting for the results of my low/lower carb experiment first.

well because i only work each body part once( as of this writing im moving to 2x per week) i tend not to use submaximal weights at all just go full on. however the progressive load is a must for me.
i work down from around 15-20 reps depending on the exercise, down to my max lifts or at least 1-3reps over a period of weeks. then i start alover again.

i tend to do 3 sets per exercise plus one stretching exercise ie: pull overs for lats or cables for chest etc.

my quads n bi's are slow growers so im moving to 2x per week for them.

all pretty straight forward stuff really, nothing fancy, just solid training and commitment.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">my quads n bi's are slow growers so im moving to 2x per week for them.</div>

yeah that effing 2X4 of an arm in that avi...clearly a slow grower !!!
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cheers
 
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(AKUFADUM @ Aug. 24 2008,8:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Slight Hijack for lcars...

You mentioned you still do progression with you 1x week frequency. I guess you are increasing the weights on weekly basis?

If so, how much?
Even though i know you can lift way more that I can I would just think the submaximal weights wouldn't be beneficial with 1x frequency.

Also, I tried to see if you had a log here to see the rest of your routine. There was no recent log for you would you mind posting the rest of it?

I think I am at point where I have to increase the volume. So, I am trying to get some ideas.

Thanks</div>
i dont really watch the weights pound for pound as my energy levels fluctuate a fair bit. through experience i can pretty much tell u what im gonna lift on that day so i just grab a weight and add it to the bar n usually it hits the mark.

for example i start bench@ 15 reps for 3 sets with 220-240lbs on the bar. following week i go to around 250-260lbs. so i guess its around 10-20lbs each week. my cycles tend to be quite short.

seems to work for me, as i believe that as the body is always fighting for homeostasis,so it will eventually adapt to what you are doing(which is where hst should come in) so i get in, hit hard, n get out.

however, i think standard hst falls a little short here,because of the possible zigzaging and submaximal loads ,the body has time to adapt quicker than one would want. you have to get a little creative to work round this.

just my opinion!
 
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