whey vs micellar protein

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Nemesis7884

New Member
it is generally recommended to consume a slow diggesting protein post workout such as miscellar protein - my question: will you see a significant difference (negative) in the quality of wheigtgain/musclebuilding/dieting if you replace the slow protein trhough a simple whey?

why do i ask such a dum question? well miscellar protein is 3 times as expensive as whey...
 
i have no idea what the answer is to your question. bump. but what i do is just have a big shaker bottle of skim milk plus whey. in another post my Aaron i believe, about how the protein and milk can be absorbed at different rates, so the quick protein for post workout is decent, and the gelling protein that is released slowly(milk) is good. When it gets close to the 1-1.5hour after workout i just have a decent sized meal with lots of chicken.beef etc so protein intake won't be a problem.

I can't afford expensive proteins either, so i do what i can with what i have
laugh.gif
 
Is a casein based protein powder "best" to take after a workout?........yes. But you are not going to make steroid-like gains whichever way you choose to go.

On a side note, if you can't afford the casein powders, use milk. It has a nice blend of proteins and about half them are slower digesting caseins.
 
i thought the milk ratio of casein/whey is around 80:20....

well milk would be an interesting option and contains also a lot of carbs of medium gi that help to recover glycogen lvls...hmmm the only thing that concerns me is lactose content in milk when i consume up to 2 litres a day, and the influence on insuline lvls...
 
how bad is it? like REAL bad...? this would make meal a okay post workout meal but a real bad pre bed meal... i am still looking for a substitute
 
Bollocks,

had a big reply and it was eaten by my computer crashing

Ok, milk (protein specifically) raises insulin, but that byitself is no real worry. Too much (consistent) or too little (ie none) are bad, but physiological levels are not much of an issue.

Milk is the first food for babies of each species, and within basically all species they have to grow, and grow fast (humans are relatively slow growing compared to some). Protein synthesis is a specific requirement for growing. PRotien synthesis is a requirement to be a bodybuilder, becuase if you do not increase PS (and reduce or maintain breakdown) you will not grow.

Now milk protein has large quantities of Branch Chain amino acids, and of these leucine is the highest concentration and requirement. Leucine is one of the amino acids that has a very strong role in increasing protein synthesis. To do this, it reacts with a protein called mammilian target of rapamycin or mTor (either by itself or through other proteins). This further translates down the chain to increases in PS. Now, leucine does this ok, but in reality its far better with insulin. But the primary milk sugar is a simple disaccharide lactose which has a low stimulatory effect on insulin, so lactose + leucine will not raise insulin as high as would be if it was lecuine + glucose. But thats not much of a choice in a growing kid...

Leucine (and other BCAA's) will stimulate insulin, which has metabolic effects which end with mTor as well, where it has a synergistic effect on protien synthesis.

mtor1sf.jpg


I have a much more confusing graphic somewhere, it is a hugely complex area.


Drink ya milk

laugh.gif
 
I could be wrong but I never understand why someone would take a slow acting protein in the form of powder/a shake after a workout.

I sandwich my workouts with whey/maltodextrin shakes and either eat at the same time as my post workout shake or half an hour after (chicken or tuna usually forming the protein part of the meal).

Why substitute a shake for food when there's no need? (incidentally, that's not just a rhetorical question, if there's a good reason let me know!!)

cheers

rob
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (robefc @ Feb. 17 2005,5:20)]I could be wrong but I never understand why someone would take a slow acting protein in the form of powder/a shake after a workout.
I sandwich my workouts with whey/maltodextrin shakes and either eat at the same time as my post workout shake or half an hour after (chicken or tuna usually forming the protein part of the meal).
Why substitute a shake for food when there's no need? (incidentally, that's not just a rhetorical question, if there's a good reason let me know!!)
cheers
rob
Click to expand...
when your aminos are high from the pre, there is no reason to dump in another lot (that will actually make the second lot slower in the first place due to gastric emptying)

there is also

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. [email protected]

PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.
 
Thanks Aaron,

So that study concludes that it doesn't really matter which of whey or casein you take after a workout? Or am I reading that wrong?

With respect to your first comment, would it then be fine just to have a pre workout shake and then eat afterwards? I'd love to minimise the amount of powder I'm using and eat real food instead!

I use them pre and post mainly to get as much protein and carbs in as possible (easier to do in 2 shakes rather than 1) and I had thought that because the whey from the pre-workout shake would already been in my system by the time I took the second one then it wouldn't affect it.

This way I can have two shakes (one either side of my workout) and two meals within about 2 hours of my workout, do you think the negative effect of the second lot of whey out-wheys (oh got that was a really terrible pun, I apologise!
tounge.gif
) the positive effect of getting more protein inside me?

what's your pre and post workout nutrition routine if you don't mind me asking?

thanks for the help

rob
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (robefc @ Feb. 16 2005,12:48)]So that study concludes that it doesn't really matter which of whey or casein you take after a workout? Or am I reading that wrong?
Click to expand...
You are reading it right. A "complete" protein is a complete protein. Any good protein you eat will contribute to protein synthesis. Milk is one of the better sources of protein (e.g. whey and casein).

Though there are some differences between whey and casein in other areas, both have great anabolic potential with the right timing and good training.
 
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