15s kicking your ass?

mikeynov

Super Moderator
Staff member
I talked about this with Ron (NWLifter) via email a few months back, but it's probably worth sharing with the class.

I think part of the reason 'high reps' in lower body lifts knock the living crap out of people is because of how they are usually performed.

Example...

In squats, deadlifts, or even a leg press, in a high rep set, people tend to knock out a bunch of reps with very little rest (maybe 5-8), and then start sucking in a bunch of wind between reps to keep going. I notice this happens to people even with 'light' weights.

In reality, the way people USUALLY perform 15 reps, then, in something like HST, is tantamount to a 15 rep rest/pause set. And for lower body work, that is BRUTAL as you can actively recover strength between reps of squats, deads, and leg presses.

What I found is that, if I knocked off the weight to an impressively girly amount, I could do 'high reps' in a continuous fashion (avoiding locking out) without having to suck in air between reps, instead breathing "naturally" throughout the course of the set, focusing in particular on exhilation.

The net effect of this was that my legs felt MUCH more on fire (impressively so), but the systemic drain on my body was also considerably less than usual. I.e. I could repeat or exceed the performance pretty easily a couple days later, even when training to failure.

So, it's the old Dorian Yates "continuous tension" principle at work here. I think this is less of an issue for upper body work, but for lower body, instead of the "usual" manner of sucking in a bunch of air between reps to hit your 15 rep target in lower body exercises, try knocking off weight and making them continuous, avoiding fully locking out the movement.

By doing so, I think you are accomplishing the "spirit" of the 15s, which is light loading but flooding the muscles with a crapload of lactic acid. Turning 15 rep sets into a form of quasi rest/pause, imho, is getting away from the point of things, and making the 15s much harder (systemically) than they have to be.
 
Mikey...its good to see you on the boards tonight.

I know you are busy...but I wish you would pop in more often!
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Makes sense Mikey. I think this would be absolutely true if the goal was just for a build up of lactic acid to get a really good burn. This is one of the main reasons for doing the 15s as the loads are relatively light. However, I still feel that in order to get some kind of growth stimulus from the first few weeks of the cycle that I wouldn't want to have to lighten the loads too much more just to get a better burn/occlusion effect.

It also seems to me that as 15 reps is a lot of reps to do consecutively for deads or squats, you are bound to cross the anaerobic/aerobic threshold to some degree and need to suck in a bit more air. I appreciate that having to take a breath between reps will allow a degree of recovery but, as long as this is kept to a minimum, the effect should be minimised. Yes, the set will likely be more draining but, once I am at or near my 15RM load, I rather like having to push myself to get those last 5 reps with as heavy a weight as possible.

I think I will do the continuous tension thing for as many reps as possible during the first week of 15s when the loads are lightest and then add in some air intake as necessay during the second week so I can still reach my 15RM load.
 
I guess I'll play devil's advocate here. IMO, recommending people to "breathe naturally" is totally wrong for squatting, if nothing else as well. To begin with, if I exhaled anywhere during an incompleted rep, I probably wouldn't have the power to get it up; my biomechanics would be wrong. (assuming we're not talking about the first reps of the set)
I was taught by PL's to grab that breath and hold it until halfway up or all the way, making myself like an inflated ball. Some russians do two reps before taking a breath. (somehow; I can't do it.)
The key word these big lifting dogs used all the time was "TIGHT" "TIGHT" "TIGHT!!!" How can you stay tight when just breathing any way you want? I'd fear a back injury this way.
 
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(quadancer @ May 10 2007,07:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess I'll play devil's advocate here. IMO, recommending people to &quot;breathe naturally&quot; is totally wrong for squatting, if nothing else as well. To begin with, if I exhaled anywhere during an incompleted rep, I probably wouldn't have the power to get it up; my biomechanics would be wrong. (assuming we're not talking about the first reps of the set)
I was taught by PL's to grab that breath and hold it until halfway up or all the way, making myself like an inflated ball. Some russians do two reps before taking a breath. (somehow; I can't do it.)
The key word these big lifting dogs used all the time was &quot;TIGHT&quot; &quot;TIGHT&quot; &quot;TIGHT!!!&quot; How can you stay tight when just breathing any way you want? I'd fear a back injury this way.</div>
I don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

I had been taught the same, to employ val salva to increase intra-abdominal pressure and help stabilize the spine under load. And I do use that when actually strength training.

However, with a sufficiently light load, I just don't think it's much of an issue to &quot;breathe naturally.&quot; This is how the HIT tards have been doing squats for the past 35+ years, and they seem to not have exploded yet.

In reality, you will still tend to reflexively hold your breath when the going gets tough (which is normal/natural) during grindy parts of the squat, but I don't think failing to hold your breath before initiating your squat rep is particularly dangerous if you simply maintain proper mechanics in the movement (spine neutrality and all that) and use a load appropriate for the job at hand.
 
There was a kid in high school who ran track. He ran the 440, and held his breath the whole way. Crazy, right? But he broke all the school records! Don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but I wonder if one could do 15 light squats on one breath...?

You'd probably pass out.
 
I'm not some huge advocate of Max-Stim, though I have been experimenting with it... but basically this principle of Yates is the exact opposite? Basically setting the m-time to zero?
 
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(mikeynov @ May 09 2007,19:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...By doing so, I think you are accomplishing the &quot;spirit&quot; of the 15s, which is light loading but flooding the muscles with a crapload of lactic acid. Turning 15 rep sets into a form of quasi rest/pause, imho, is getting away from the point of things, and making the 15s much harder (systemically) than they have to be.</div>
Well put Mike.

There is a mindset that is different with HST compared to strength training. In strength training, people tend to think in terms of moving the weight from one place to another. In essence, the goal is literally to lift the weight into position, with the emphasis being on the barbell or the dumbbell itself.

With HST, you should try to think in terms of the tissue rather than the weight that you're holding onto. With each rep you are shortening and lengthening the tissue under load.

The best example I can think of is pulling taffy. When you pull taffy, you aren't thinking in terms of your hands...where they are in relation to each other. What you are focused on is the taffy, how it is reacting to being stretched over and over again. With experience, you learn when it is &quot;done&quot;.

-bryan
 
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(Bryan Haycock @ May 11 2007,19:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The best example I can think of is pulling taffy. When you pull taffy, you aren't thinking in terms of your hands...where they are in relation to each other. What you are focused on is the taffy, how it is reacting to being stretched over and over again. With experience, you learn when it is &quot;done&quot;.

-bryan</div>
Pardon me but, what the hell is pulling taffy
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(Bonio @ May 11 2007,19:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Bryan Haycock @ May 11 2007,19:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The best example I can think of is pulling taffy. When you pull taffy, you aren't thinking in terms of your hands...where they are in relation to each other. What you are focused on is the taffy, how it is reacting to being stretched  over and over again. With experience, you learn when it is &quot;done&quot;.

-bryan</div>
Pardon me but, what the hell is pulling taffy
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</div>
Ha...somebody just gave away there age...
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