200, 300, 400, 500 - A quest for greatness

M

mikeynov

Super Moderator
Staff member
Howdy all,

Once upon a time, I was reasonably active posting on the HST forums, and even the thinkmuscle HST forums before this site existed. I still browse this site regularly, but have refrained from regular posting due to activity at other, more active forums. This post, then, will be my re-introduction to this website, I hope.

I feel like my labcoat inspiration started here with HST, so I'm going to start logging my training and labcoat-y thoughts and philosophy on the subject of resistance training.

I've used various routines over the past several years, mostly strength oriented, though it seems my strength is bottlenecked by the amount of lean mass I carry. In some ways, despite setting PR's in various lifts the past couple of years, I have been spinning my wheels in terms of my overall size and strength, and would like to reach higher into my genetic potential, whatever that may be.

My goals are still at least partially strength oriented, hence the title of the thread, representing a 200 press, 300 bench, 400 squat, and 500 dead, being long term goals for these lifts. However, my goals are also to be the biggest, strongest, but healthiest person I can be, given my own genetic station.

I am far from a "natural" at this stuff, and feel any progress I've made has been hard fought to this point. In case anyone wonders what I look like, I have a couple of pictures from this past summer showing me in very lean condition:

Picture 1.

Picture 2.

In the next post, I'll introduce the "break in" training I'm using at the moment after the summer diet, inspired by my own experimentation with strength training in conjunction with HST.
 
I've thought a lot about the idea of an "SST," or strength-specific training program. My experimentation with 5 x 5 style programs has convinced me of a few principles that seem to apply, at least in my own case, in terms of raising performance as quickly as possible in a group of lifts:

1) Frequency of training. As I first discovered via HST, submaximal, frequent training seems to work very, very well for rapidly improving performance in big, compound movements.

2) Dual factor logic. The two factors in this model are both "fitness," or the positive adaptations to training, and "fatigue," the overall systemic stress imposed by one's exercise. These are happening alongside each other, and gains in fitness can be masked by fatigue. The basic pattern, then, is to have periods of accumulation (of volume/training stress) followed by periods of deloading and intensification (volume drops while the weights go up).

3) Preparatory periods of submaximal training going along with the above. For one reason or another, having at least a couple of weeks of intentionally lighter weights preceding a cycle based on the above two factors seems not only useful, but mandatory to get the most out of the routines. This is built into the "5 x 5" style programs circulating around the net, and is also well demonstrated in HST itself, actually, as you only reach for PR's once every couple of weeks.

While the above may sound a little complicated, I've found pretty damn simple methods to employ the logic in ways that I have not really seen before. I'll give you all a simple example of an "SST" style program using only three lifts (squat, bench, chins).

Three times per week (e.g. M/W/F) of:

Squats - 3 sets of 5 reps
Bench - 3 sets of 5 reps
Chins - 3 sets of 5 reps

The first two weeks: select a load at the end of a prepatory, two week block representing ~6-8 rep maxes for each of the lifts. This will look something like a typical HST mini-cycle, where you are NOT risking anything close to failure for most of the two weeks and cycle up to your designated weights over the two weeks. In fact, in the above, the idea is to select weights that, in the worst case scenario, you know you can still hit for 3 sets of 5 reps on the final (6th) session. In my experience, this corresponds to something in the neighborhood of a ~6-8 rep max.

Starting with week #3: At this point, volume gets traded for performance. Cut down to only 2 sets of 5, and raise the weights by the least possible increment every time you train. Keep performing two sets of 5 until a second set of 5 becomes impossible to perform.

At a single set of 5, I would recommend dropping the frequency of the lifts to 1-2 times weekly, or to use some form of heavy/light/medium schedule, and attempting PR's a time or two per week. This can probably be carried on for quite a while.

In essence, the volume ends up being dictated by performance, and the number of sets you perform at a given session is based on the number of sets for the prescribed number of reps you were capable of performing during the previous session. I think Mel Siff called this "cybernetic periodization," or basically that the input (amount of exercise to be performed) is dictated by the output (the actual performance in the exercise).

Obviously, you can use this basic principle of training with any set of lifts you like, though I would hesitate to use it in something like deadlifts. Deadlifts I still just program with linear cycles and hit it once per week - this seems to work as well as anything, really.

So, we have a very basic pattern of strength training established, and in the next post, I'm going to detail how to integrate HST principles to run alongside the "SST" portion of our program.
 
One of the ideas I really like with the "conjugate" (read: actually combination) style training of Westside is to train different motor qualities simultaneously. E.g. "strength" work alongside "hypertrophy" work.

For the sake of argument, we'll suggest that HST style training represents a logical approach to stimulating muscle tissue to grow. So our idea, then, would be to perform the SST routine in the previous example alongside an HST routine.

Now, given that the SST routine, by its nature, is going to be reasonably hard work in and of itself, I think it's best to keep the "HST" portion of the program incredibly simple, with the least number of exercises possible, while avoiding over-straining the lower back.

One of the simplest possible iterations of an HST routine could be as follows:

1) Lower body exercise that includes both hip/knee extension that is easy on the lower back.
2) A push upper body exercise
3) A pull upper body exercise.

Example:

Leg Press (legs high on the plate style)
Dips
Chest Supported Rows

A typical HST routine lasts ~6 weeks and has two week blocks of 15, 10, and 5s. One of the easiest, volume-constant approaches is to do a single set of 15 for the first two weeks, two sets of 10 for the next two weeks, and 3 sets of 5 for the final two weeks. This has proven itself pretty useful, so we'll use the same here. Including both the SST and HST portion of our program, then, we'd come up with...

SST
Squats - 5,5,5 --> 5,5 --> 5
Bench - 5,5,5 --> 5,5 --> 5
Chins - 5,5,5 --> 5,5 --> 5
* Deadlifts

HST
Leg Press - 15 --> 10,10 --> 5,5,5
Dips - 15 --> 10,10 --> 5,5,5
Chest Supported Rows - 15 --> 10,10 --> 5,5,5

* Deadlifts performed once weekly on a linear cycle, e.g.:

Week 1: Projected new 5 RM - 75 (3 sets of 5)
Week 2: Projected new 5 RM - 60 (3 sets of 5)
Week 3: Projected new 5 RM - 45 (2 sets of 5)
Week 4: Projected new 5 RM - 30 (2 sets of 5)
Week 5: projected new 5 RM - 15 (1 set of 5)
Week 6: new 5 rep max (1 set of 5 or as many as possible)

So, we have a total of only 6 lifts and a maximum value of ~15 sets in a given day (on a deadlift day). I would call this doable by most people, particularly given adequate recovery.

We have both a strength component (the SST) and a "hypertrophy" component (the HST), with the latter simply adding to the total volume of the former to raise the total volume, hopefully, to a level of significance, so we are both rapidly improving performance (via various routes, particularly neurological magic) and, hopefully, growing at the same time.

Like HST, you'd want periods of strategic deconditioning to punctuate such cycles, obviously.
 
Now, with all that in mind, here is my own routine, based on a very similar logic:

SST

Squats - 5,5,5 --> 5 --> 3,3,3 --> max
Bench (or Press) - 5,5,5 --> 5 --> 3,3,3 --> max
Chins - 5,5,5 --> 5 --> 3,3,3 --> max
* Deadlifts (linear cycle once weekly)

HST

Leg Press - 15 --> 10,10 --> 5,5,5
Dips - 15 --> 10,10 --> 5,5,5
Hammer Iso Row - 15 --> 10,10 --> 5,5,5

Pretty straight forward, except that, starting with the second block (switching from 3 sets of 5 to a single set of 5), I will alternate the press (standing, overhead, strict) with bench.

I am actually allowing myself a ~3 week preparatory period due to a very low bodyweight coming off a diet, and have performed 3 of the 8 sessions for this block so far.

The records for these initial sessions can be found at my log on BR, here.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">

August 6, 2008

First day back on my new program designed to rapidly restore my strength/muscle to previous bests.

I wound up taking ~13 days off, which is the biggest break from lifting I've had in 2 years. Strength loss was marked and noticeable upon my return, but I selected extremely cautious weights by design, so everything went fine.

Squats

Warmed up to 185 for 3 sets of 5 with a band around my knees.

Bench

Warmed up to 185 for 3 sets of 5.

Deadlifts

Warmed up to 275 for 3 sets of 5 using a conventional stance.

After re-watching some of Rip's videos, I actually found one of the most useful cues for both squats and deadlifts to think about &quot;anchoring&quot; my back position while standing up instead of trying to stand up/raise the chest simultaneously. It feels MUCH more natural like this.

Chins

3 sets of me + 55 lbs for 5 reps.

Leg Press

5 plates per side for a set of 15.

DB Incline Bench

50's for a set of 15.

Calf Raises in the Leg Press

2 plates + 10 lbs per side for a set of 15, pauses at the bottom and top.

Hammer Iso Row

100 lbs (90 + 5 lbs per side) for a set of 15.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">

August 8th, 2008

Another day, more pumps...

Squats

Warmed up to 195 for 3 sets of 5, the first two sets with a band around my knees. Made more use of the stretch reflex today.

Bench

Warmed up to 190 for 3 sets of 5. I found a thick, rubber mat in the gym which sets the height of the bench to about perfect in the rack, so benching by myself should be a lot less of a headache now (I would occasionally bang the bar off the safety arms before).

Chins

3 sets of 5 with me + 60 lbs.

Leg Press + Calf Raises

A set of 15 with 5 plates + 10 lbs per side.

A set of 15 reps with 2 plates + 20 lbs per side for calf raises.

Dips

I decided I may do dips instead of DB incline bench as the former seems to have a better carryover to my other pressing exercises, and if I'm going to change something, this early in the program is the time to do it.

Unfortunately, the only dip option at my gym has thick handles and is spaced a little further out than I prefer. This did not feel entirely lovely on my left shoulder, though actively retracting my scapulae did help some.

I actually have a pretty good doorway dipping station at home, so I may just do these at home from now on.

A set of me + 25 lbs for 15 reps.

Hammer Iso Row

105 for a set of 15.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">

August 10th, 2008

Squats

Warmed up to 3 sets of 205 for 5 reps.

I almost lost my balance sitting back on the second set on the last rep. Been a long time since I've done that.

Bench

Warmed up and then 3 sets of 195 for 5 reps. Starting to find my groove here again.

Chins

3 sets of me + 65 lbs for 5 reps.

Leg Press + Calf Raises

Warmed up and then 5 plates + 25 lbs per side for a set of 15 in the leg press. 2 plates + 25 lbs per side for a set of 15 in the calf raise.

Hammer Iso Row

A set of 110 for 15 reps.

Dips

I did these at home today, where it feels less hard on my shoulder and I'm actually able to go deeper.

Me + 30 for a set of 13 with momentary pauses at the bottom. Did the last two reps after a ~10 second breather or so. Oops.

I think I will just try repeating the weight next time, see if I can add reps. I'm not quite as concerned about the assistance stuff as I am the 3 sets of 5 stuff in terms of nailing the right weights at the right time.</div>
 
Mikey, it's great that you are keeping this log. I have very similar goals as far as strength is concerned but I am running behind you. I'm only now trying my first experiment in maintaining lean mass while dieting down. I hope to make it down to 196lb initially (only 4lb away now) and then decide whether to follow Lyle's UD2.0 for a few more months (I think I could stand to go to 186lb). I'd be interested to know what your body weight is right now and what you think you it will need to be when you reach the 200, 300, 400, 500 stage?

I like your SST/HST approach and I'll be checking in regulalrly to see how it goes for you.
 
<div>
(Lol @ Aug. 11 2008,6:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey, it's great that you are keeping this log. I have very similar goals as far as strength is concerned but I am running behind you. I'm only now trying my first experiment in maintaining lean mass while dieting down. I hope to make it down to 196lb initially (only 4lb away now) and then decide whether to follow Lyle's UD2.0 for a few more months (I think I could stand to go to 186lb). I'd be interested to know what your body weight is right now and what you think you it will need to be when you reach the 200, 300, 400, 500 stage?

I like your SST/HST approach and I'll be checking in regulalrly to see how it goes for you.</div>
Running behind me? Your best lifts are all ahead of mine
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Bodyweight at the gym on Sunday was ~155 lbs lightly clothed, shoes on.

As to what it needs to be, that is an excellent question. I would guess at least 180 lbs, as a ball park figure, but it's hard to say for certain.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Aug. 11 2008,7:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Welcome back, good timing, I just popped back in here myself after a long layoff.</div>
Cool deal. Get yourself active on this board and let's generate some good old fashioned labcoat discussion
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In fact, if you're looking for a program, I am curious to at least test the &quot;SST&quot; portion of the logic I've outlined with others.

After a long layoff, I'd probably use at least a 3 week preparatory period to get up to conservative 6-8 rep maxes (the high frequency should help facilitate this), as an aside.
 
I am starting out with a super simple 'starting strength' template to get my former strength back quickly. 3 compounds, 3x5, 3x/week. Once I plateau on that, then its time to get all labcoaty!
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<div>
(scientific muscle @ Aug. 11 2008,9:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am starting out with a super simple 'starting strength' template to get my former strength back quickly. 3 compounds, 3x5, 3x/week. Once I plateau on that, then its time to get all labcoaty!
biggrin.gif
</div>
I saw that after I recommended it, actually, what you're doing is basically what I was going to recommend.

The only difference would be that, at some point, 3 sets of 5 is going to stall. When that happens, try cutting to down to a couple of sets of 5, or even just a top set of 5. Volume gets traded for performance, when a given number of sets of 5 aren't doable, you cut into the volume and keep driving up the numbers.
 
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 12 2008,12:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Lol @ Aug. 11 2008,6:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey, ...  I am running behind you.</div>
Running behind me?  Your best lifts are all ahead of mine
smile.gif
</div>
I am running behind you because I have yet to attain your impressive level of leanness after my 2-year bulked-up state. (Did you follow one of Lyle's diets?) My best lifts were made when I was up around 220lb. I have definitely lost strength since then as my body weight has dropped off. I'm hoping to address that this winter and see if I can make any improvements over my previous bests.

As far as training at the end of 5s goes, I tend to drop to sets of 3 once I can't manage 2 sets of 5. That way I can still keep the load up at my 5RM without killing my CNS on the first set. I find 5 x 3 about as hard as 2 x 5 at that point with the added benefit of the extra work. I can also get away with less rest time between sets for the 3s if I'm at my 5RM loads so it doesn't take an age longer to complete the sets.
 
Mikey,

It's great to see you posting more frequently here. I have done something similar, to your HST/SST dual logic, with decent results (would have been better if I wasn't a fool with form) earlier in the year. I like the new setup, but what does a typical week look like as far as frequency is concerned?

Do you do a total of six workouts a week (three SST, three HST)?

-Colby
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Aug. 12 2008,12:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey,

It's great to see you posting more frequently here. I have done something similar, to your HST/SST dual logic, with decent results (would have been better if I wasn't a fool with form) earlier in the year. I like the new setup, but what does a typical week look like as far as frequency is concerned?

Do you do a total of six workouts a week (three SST, three HST)?

-Colby</div>
Just to make it clear, I'm doing both portions the same day.

So, just like default HST, I'm lifting 3 days per week. The program is just divided into a &quot;strength&quot; portion (i.e. the dual factor logic outlined above) and a &quot;pump&quot; portion (the HST stuff), to borrow Doug Hepburn's terminology.
 
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 12 2008,12:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to make it clear, I'm doing both portions the same day.

So, just like default HST, I'm lifting 3 days per week.  The program is just divided into a &quot;strength&quot; portion (i.e. the dual factor logic outlined above) and a &quot;pump&quot; portion (the HST stuff), to borrow Doug Hepburn's terminology.</div>
Okay, so it's a 3 day/week routine, but is it AM/PM split or all in one giant workout?
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Aug. 12 2008,12:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 12 2008,12:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to make it clear, I'm doing both portions the same day.

So, just like default HST, I'm lifting 3 days per week. The program is just divided into a &quot;strength&quot; portion (i.e. the dual factor logic outlined above) and a &quot;pump&quot; portion (the HST stuff), to borrow Doug Hepburn's terminology.</div>
Okay, so it's a 3 day/week routine, but is it AM/PM split or all in one giant workout?</div>
One &quot;giant&quot; workout.

However, I'm doing like 7-8 exercises (and that includes calf raises) in a given session. That doesn't seem that giant to me?

To put this in perspective, the whole routine has taken me about an hour to perform so far resting &quot;normally&quot; between sets.

One of my goals when labcoating up something like this is to have a final product that is very simple in execution, even if the underlying reasoning behind it was complicated.
 
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 12 2008,12:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One &quot;giant&quot; workout.

However, I'm doing like 7-8 exercises (and that includes calf raises) in a given session.  That doesn't seem that giant to me?

To put this in perspective, the whole routine has taken me about an hour to perform so far resting &quot;normally&quot; between sets.

One of my goals when labcoating up something like this is to have a final product that is very simple in execution, even if the underlying reasoning behind it was complicated.</div>
Well, the routine would then be 12 sets for 6 exercises. On DL day, it would be upwards to 15 sets. Add warmup sets in there and you are looking at 20-25 total sets. I guess that isn't too bad if you are very efficient with it, but combined with a 10 minute warmup and some cardio, the workout approaches 90-120 minutes.

I am simply analyzing this workout as to whether it is practical for me to implement it or not. The routine looks solid!
 
Good to see you posting again, you always bring good observations and provoking ideas to the sight. The way I have been dealing with the dynamic you mention is to first raise my numbers with 3x3's then backtrack a bit and expand those to 5 or 6x3's , then back track a bit and go to 8x3's , then 10x3's - basically raising strength then &quot;filling in&quot; volume in a sidestepping fashion. I take 5-7 days off around once every 2 months then back cycle a bit before resuming the progression .
                 I'm doing flat bench and over head press as w/o &quot;A&quot; and deadlift , chest supported row and upright row as w/o &quot;B&quot; , alternating w/o's on a mon, weds, Fri. schedule so as to hit each workout 3x every two weeks.
                 It's a work in progress fine tuning wise - with overhead and uprights being done as 2x12's in a backoff set manner with the real emphasis being placed on progression of the triples in Flat bench, Rows and Deads. Weight progression is 2 lbs each workout as opposed to bigger jumps . It's a return to basics for me (influences include Stuart McRoberts , Yates , Jones...) abbreviated , (relatively) infrequent training  , with small poundage jumps, care taken to satisfy recovery , ect.  Also I'm always willing to do only 2 w/o's a week when feeling it's a good idea or to postpone a workout a day or even two - heresy here on the HST board I know - but in order to truly make load king , I cut frequency (again relatively speaking) and find it is working well for me.
                 
                  Anyway - I always find your posts enlightening and look forwards to following your experiments.
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Today took a while as the weights climb, but I still felt pretty good.

SST

Squats

Warmed up to 215 for 3 sets of 5.

I experimented with going a little wider, heels at shoulder width instead of feet at shoulder width, as per Rip's suggestion. I performed my first set of 5 like this with a band around my knees.

For whatever reason, though, what feels most natural to me is a little narrower than this, or if I'm going wider, to go ferrealz wide to PL style. Intermediate widths just feel...odd.

Anyways, the next two sets were done in my usual fashion. Last rep on the last set almost made my back slightly spasm, something about the bracing of my back coming up can occasionally trigger this. I think I may have slightly lost (back) extension on this last rep, so that probably didn't help.

Bench

Warmed up to 3 sets of 200 for 5 reps, first reps paused. Not too bad.

Deadlifts

I was pretty cautious here, given my back almost went bonkers early in the workout, but this ended up working out alright.

3 sets of 290 for 5 reps after warmup, the middle set was done (semi) sumo style. My last set was actually the fastest/easiest.

Chins

Weirdly, this exercise seems to be struggling the most early on.

Me + 70 lbs for 3 sets of 5, with the last two sets being reasonably challenging.

HST

Leg Press

Warmed up to 5 plates + 35 lbs per side for a set of 15. I honestly &quot;feel&quot; a good leg press throughout my legs (particularly quads and glutes) more than any squat variant.

Hammer Iso Row

115 for a set of 15 reps.

Dips

Me + 30 lbs for a set of 15 reps. Cool, added two reps from my last effort.
 
I am impressed w/ your program. should you make your goals @ 180, it would place you firmly in a Class 2 category which is where I'm dreaming of being in the next two years.
 
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