200, 300, 400, 500 - A quest for greatness
- Thread starter mikeynov
- Start date
I'm enjoying this minddump I'm doing in my journal so far. I have a lot of thoughts about this stuff and not a whole lot of outlets, and writing this out also lets me organize and refine the thoughts in my head.
I think I'm going to start giving journal entries with a brief title. So, here's another one...
5's and the "Trap" of Low Reps
I love low rep training. Seriously. Singles, triples, that **** is addictive.
However, ever since I got into strength training and powerlifting a few years ago, I've made the observation that, while training in a low rep range seems very advantageous for quickly raising strength, my top end strength has not necessarily improved considerably for most lifts year to year.
One possibility is that I'm closer to my genetic limits, and there is some truth to this, but I don't think it's the whole truth.
I think by ignoring higher rep ranges, I have ultimately handicapped my top end strength.
Back in my HST and bodybuffing days, my strength gains year to year were probably more consistent than they've been the past few years. Even with shitty form, substantially less training knowledge, and limited access to training equipment.
I think I've fallen into the "trap" of low reps. Loading up that bar with lots of weight and then cranking out a few reps for lots of sets is a shitload of fun. It's arguably my favorite way to lift.
However, think of "strength" in a different way, not as a single entity, or the most weight you can lift, but as a full spectrum ranging from one's ability to lift a weight only once, to being able to lift a lighter weight many, many times. This is a really critical concept, so reread this a few times in order for it to really sink in.
What I am describing is a combination of peak strength (1 RM) and strength-endurance (higher RM's), in essence, the ability to lift loads across a broad rep range spectrum. Maybe something like your 1 - 15 RM, for the purpose of illustration.
As such, concentrating too much on one side of this spectrum, i.e. very low reps, will certainly improve your strength, particularly in that range, but the effects moving downstream towards strength-endurance grow progressively weaker the further you move away from this rep range.
I.e. working on nothing but singles/triples is a great way to raise your max lifts for a while, but are you really going to be that much better with a 10 rep max, or a 15 rep max?
My previous thought was that, if my 1 RM keeps going up, it seems like my ability to crank out reps downstream should also be going up. However, what I've found, I think, is that a lot of this top end strength can wear off surprisingly quickly with some detraining, and my ability to rep out stuff needs to be practiced more specifically.
Finding a compromise here has been difficult, but looking at my own past training, I think I have anecdotal support for Rip's Practical Programming logic of using 5's to drive strength progress over one's training career.
Why 5's? Because 5's seem to cause downstream effects in both directions extremely well. Could this maybe be 4, 6, or 7 reps? Sure, there's no magic in that specific number. But if I drive up my ability to do sets of 5, everything from my 1 RM to my 15 RM improves.
I've also had this conversation with Aaron a few years back (a poster here and at BR, one of our HST experts), and he noticed that a lot of the most successful powerlifting programs of the past seemed to have a great deal of the training directed at 5's.
In terms of increasing "strength" across the spectrum described above, heavy 5's seem to work about as well as anything.
So, for any potential readers, low reps seem to work quite well at improving top end strength, but consider the power of 5's to increase strength across a very broad rep range. Don't get caught in the trap of sticking too religiously to the very heavy stuff, as fun as it is, as your "strength continuum" in your big lifts might suffer.
I think I'm going to start giving journal entries with a brief title. So, here's another one...
5's and the "Trap" of Low Reps
I love low rep training. Seriously. Singles, triples, that **** is addictive.
However, ever since I got into strength training and powerlifting a few years ago, I've made the observation that, while training in a low rep range seems very advantageous for quickly raising strength, my top end strength has not necessarily improved considerably for most lifts year to year.
One possibility is that I'm closer to my genetic limits, and there is some truth to this, but I don't think it's the whole truth.
I think by ignoring higher rep ranges, I have ultimately handicapped my top end strength.
Back in my HST and bodybuffing days, my strength gains year to year were probably more consistent than they've been the past few years. Even with shitty form, substantially less training knowledge, and limited access to training equipment.
I think I've fallen into the "trap" of low reps. Loading up that bar with lots of weight and then cranking out a few reps for lots of sets is a shitload of fun. It's arguably my favorite way to lift.
However, think of "strength" in a different way, not as a single entity, or the most weight you can lift, but as a full spectrum ranging from one's ability to lift a weight only once, to being able to lift a lighter weight many, many times. This is a really critical concept, so reread this a few times in order for it to really sink in.
What I am describing is a combination of peak strength (1 RM) and strength-endurance (higher RM's), in essence, the ability to lift loads across a broad rep range spectrum. Maybe something like your 1 - 15 RM, for the purpose of illustration.
As such, concentrating too much on one side of this spectrum, i.e. very low reps, will certainly improve your strength, particularly in that range, but the effects moving downstream towards strength-endurance grow progressively weaker the further you move away from this rep range.
I.e. working on nothing but singles/triples is a great way to raise your max lifts for a while, but are you really going to be that much better with a 10 rep max, or a 15 rep max?
My previous thought was that, if my 1 RM keeps going up, it seems like my ability to crank out reps downstream should also be going up. However, what I've found, I think, is that a lot of this top end strength can wear off surprisingly quickly with some detraining, and my ability to rep out stuff needs to be practiced more specifically.
Finding a compromise here has been difficult, but looking at my own past training, I think I have anecdotal support for Rip's Practical Programming logic of using 5's to drive strength progress over one's training career.
Why 5's? Because 5's seem to cause downstream effects in both directions extremely well. Could this maybe be 4, 6, or 7 reps? Sure, there's no magic in that specific number. But if I drive up my ability to do sets of 5, everything from my 1 RM to my 15 RM improves.
I've also had this conversation with Aaron a few years back (a poster here and at BR, one of our HST experts), and he noticed that a lot of the most successful powerlifting programs of the past seemed to have a great deal of the training directed at 5's.
In terms of increasing "strength" across the spectrum described above, heavy 5's seem to work about as well as anything.
So, for any potential readers, low reps seem to work quite well at improving top end strength, but consider the power of 5's to increase strength across a very broad rep range. Don't get caught in the trap of sticking too religiously to the very heavy stuff, as fun as it is, as your "strength continuum" in your big lifts might suffer.
I
imported_electric
Guest
Mike, I've just asked this question in the MaxStim thread, but doesn't this assertion kind of downplays MaxStim's efficiency since MS is similar to clustering reps in sets of 1?
<div>
(electric @ Aug. 21 2008,10:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mike, I've just asked this question in the MaxStim thread, but doesn't this assertion kind of downplays MaxStim's efficiency since MS is similar to clustering reps in sets of 1?</div>
It depends.
If you were to take really long rests between reps, maybe.
However, if you control m-time to keep the density of training pretty high, I think you enter kind of a fuzzy territory where some of what I'm talking about probably doesn't apply.
I.e. when I say "low reps," I mean do 1-3 reps, wait 3-5 minutes, then repeat. Not 1-3 reps, wait 10-30 seconds, then repeat.
(electric @ Aug. 21 2008,10:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mike, I've just asked this question in the MaxStim thread, but doesn't this assertion kind of downplays MaxStim's efficiency since MS is similar to clustering reps in sets of 1?</div>
It depends.
If you were to take really long rests between reps, maybe.
However, if you control m-time to keep the density of training pretty high, I think you enter kind of a fuzzy territory where some of what I'm talking about probably doesn't apply.
I.e. when I say "low reps," I mean do 1-3 reps, wait 3-5 minutes, then repeat. Not 1-3 reps, wait 10-30 seconds, then repeat.
I think I see where you are coming from here mikeynov and I tend to agree. When I PLed years ago I used the 5 rep scheme progessively up to about a three or four weeks out from a meet. I would then switch to a 3X3 for a couple weeks just prior to the meet and work my way up to singles the week or so before the meet. Once the meet was over I would take a week off and reset the whole 5 rep scheme again and press to add a little bit on that rep range. On occasion we would throw in 20 rep work with our 5 - 10 rep weight for various lifts. I dont know the science behind those rascals but they sure sparked a bit of growth and really forced you to focus. Rarely would we move up to ten rep work but we would for a single cycle if we wanted to give our joints a break from the fun and get a little hypertrophy / Endurance work in. I never really felt like my singles or triples added much to the higher repition. I think that a good deal of the magic in these lower rep ranges is neurological adaptation to the greatly increased load. I agree, this does not appear to transfer well to the higher rep ranges as you speculate. Perhaps this has something to do with our inner monster conserving resources when we do higher rep work as opposed to that same monster knowing he only has to perform a single of a few short reps that are being demanded and thus lets loose more of the primal forces that drive us to lift higher weight.
Last day of my preparatory period.
SST
Squats
Not sure if I've mentioned this before, but I wear oly shoes on these. If you don't have some, get some, they rock.
My erectors (spinal) were, for some reason, massively sore today. Delayed effect from the pulls on Tuesday, I guess.
This definitely didn't help my squatting strength, but I still managed to work up to 245 for a couple of sets of 5 wearing a loose belt. By loose, I mean literally untightened, so it's possible it was just a psychological aid.
Both of my sets of 245 for 5 were a little 'meh.' By the end, I was having the same slight GM/hip shift tendencies that I fight.
I was also trying Rip's method of looking 6-10 feet in front of me, but I swear, every time I just put my head in a neutral position and basically look "ahead," squats feel easier when I use the same cues (sit back, knees out, drive *** out of the hole). Could Rip be wrong? Say it ain't so...
Bench
Some dude was shrugging All The Weights in the Gym™ in the rack where I usually do bench presses alone, so I had to go to a normal bench and ask for a spot.
Wound up working up to 210 for 2 sets of 5, first reps paused. First set the spotter didn't touch the bar, but the second set, on the last rep, even after I said "I got it," he still lightly touched. I realize he was trying to be helpful, but it's always frustrating when you specifically instruct people NOT to touch the bar under any circumstances and they still do when they see you struggle.
Chins
For some reason I decided to be a bit ambitious and used 90 lbs around my waist for my sets of 5.
First set of 5 was actually pretty easy. The second set, instead of bringing the bar to my neck, I actually brought it to the top of my sternum for reps 1-4. This left me pretty juiced, though, and my 5th rep was borderline chin above the bar.
Still, though, not bad.
HST
Leg Press
I used the 45 degree sled instead of the 35 one today.
I've heard 35 degree leg sleds referred to as "like masturbation" by coaches like Rippetoe, but I like the one at my gym because it has three variations in the angle of your feet, and I really like leg presses with feet slightly angled back towards me, as I feel it extremely well in my posterior chain.
Anyways, on the 45 degree sled, I used 5 plates per side for a (heavy for me) set of 15. Felt comparable to what I did last time on the other leg press in terms of difficulty.
Hammer Iso Row
1 plate + 25 + 2.5 lbs per side for a set of 15.
Dips
Did these at home again.
Me + 45 lbs for a set of 14 reps. I have the odd tendency to want to pause every rep at the bottom (I am weirdly anal about form in general), which makes these stupidly hard, so I shifted towards more of a touch and go midway through the set.
SST
Squats
Not sure if I've mentioned this before, but I wear oly shoes on these. If you don't have some, get some, they rock.
My erectors (spinal) were, for some reason, massively sore today. Delayed effect from the pulls on Tuesday, I guess.
This definitely didn't help my squatting strength, but I still managed to work up to 245 for a couple of sets of 5 wearing a loose belt. By loose, I mean literally untightened, so it's possible it was just a psychological aid.
Both of my sets of 245 for 5 were a little 'meh.' By the end, I was having the same slight GM/hip shift tendencies that I fight.
I was also trying Rip's method of looking 6-10 feet in front of me, but I swear, every time I just put my head in a neutral position and basically look "ahead," squats feel easier when I use the same cues (sit back, knees out, drive *** out of the hole). Could Rip be wrong? Say it ain't so...
Bench
Some dude was shrugging All The Weights in the Gym™ in the rack where I usually do bench presses alone, so I had to go to a normal bench and ask for a spot.
Wound up working up to 210 for 2 sets of 5, first reps paused. First set the spotter didn't touch the bar, but the second set, on the last rep, even after I said "I got it," he still lightly touched. I realize he was trying to be helpful, but it's always frustrating when you specifically instruct people NOT to touch the bar under any circumstances and they still do when they see you struggle.
Chins
For some reason I decided to be a bit ambitious and used 90 lbs around my waist for my sets of 5.
First set of 5 was actually pretty easy. The second set, instead of bringing the bar to my neck, I actually brought it to the top of my sternum for reps 1-4. This left me pretty juiced, though, and my 5th rep was borderline chin above the bar.
Still, though, not bad.
HST
Leg Press
I used the 45 degree sled instead of the 35 one today.
I've heard 35 degree leg sleds referred to as "like masturbation" by coaches like Rippetoe, but I like the one at my gym because it has three variations in the angle of your feet, and I really like leg presses with feet slightly angled back towards me, as I feel it extremely well in my posterior chain.
Anyways, on the 45 degree sled, I used 5 plates per side for a (heavy for me) set of 15. Felt comparable to what I did last time on the other leg press in terms of difficulty.
Hammer Iso Row
1 plate + 25 + 2.5 lbs per side for a set of 15.
Dips
Did these at home again.
Me + 45 lbs for a set of 14 reps. I have the odd tendency to want to pause every rep at the bottom (I am weirdly anal about form in general), which makes these stupidly hard, so I shifted towards more of a touch and go midway through the set.
That's some pretty darn fine chinning Mikey.
I think one of the main thrusts of Ripp's squat philosophy is to keep a neutral spine, so if you find you need to look straight ahead that probably means you are a bit more upright in your stance than he is.
With a low back squat, I find I have to look about 8-10ft in front of me in the lowest position to keep my spine neutral. If I look at a point any nearer to my feet I find I tend to focus on the spot on the floor and then as I rise up out of the hole I'm actually tipping my head down to stay looking at the same spot which makes me lean my whole torso further forward! Ideally, I now focus on a point about 15 feet away at the top of the movement and move my gaze to a point about 8 feet away when I'm in the hole.
I think one of the main thrusts of Ripp's squat philosophy is to keep a neutral spine, so if you find you need to look straight ahead that probably means you are a bit more upright in your stance than he is.
With a low back squat, I find I have to look about 8-10ft in front of me in the lowest position to keep my spine neutral. If I look at a point any nearer to my feet I find I tend to focus on the spot on the floor and then as I rise up out of the hole I'm actually tipping my head down to stay looking at the same spot which makes me lean my whole torso further forward! Ideally, I now focus on a point about 15 feet away at the top of the movement and move my gaze to a point about 8 feet away when I'm in the hole.
I don't think I've posted it here, so here's a video of me chinning 145 from over the summer.
I have some other videos in my youtube profile, as well (some from a couple years ago for my PL competition).
I have some other videos in my youtube profile, as well (some from a couple years ago for my PL competition).
Here's a very cool article from elitefts that seems to mirror my own experience with strength training frighteningly well.
Seriously, our observations are so similar that it was literally like reading pasts posts I've made on the subject.
Seriously, our observations are so similar that it was literally like reading pasts posts I've made on the subject.
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 17 2008,10:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was thinking about some of the people that motivated me in the lifting world, and, honestly, there aren't a ton of people out there that I see that I think, wow, I want that.</div>
Hunky does not motivate you?
(mikeynov @ Aug. 17 2008,10:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was thinking about some of the people that motivated me in the lifting world, and, honestly, there aren't a ton of people out there that I see that I think, wow, I want that.</div>
Hunky does not motivate you?
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 23 2008,10:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here's a very cool article from elitefts that seems to mirror my own experience with strength training frighteningly well.
Seriously, our observations are so similar that it was literally like reading pasts posts I've made on the subject.</div>
He appears to have underestimated the power of meat pies, have you?
(mikeynov @ Aug. 23 2008,10:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here's a very cool article from elitefts that seems to mirror my own experience with strength training frighteningly well.
Seriously, our observations are so similar that it was literally like reading pasts posts I've made on the subject.</div>
He appears to have underestimated the power of meat pies, have you?
I
imported_fearfactory
Guest
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2) Not sure what response you're looking at for Sheiko</div>
I brought up Sheiko as an attempt to illicit post #42, an expansion on your thoughts w/ regard to volume increases, and your opinion on the "sweet spot" (w/ regard to # of reps, % of 1RM, and occurring within a program as you've outlined) for strength increases.
am thoroughly enjoying your log, thank you for sharing.
I brought up Sheiko as an attempt to illicit post #42, an expansion on your thoughts w/ regard to volume increases, and your opinion on the "sweet spot" (w/ regard to # of reps, % of 1RM, and occurring within a program as you've outlined) for strength increases.
am thoroughly enjoying your log, thank you for sharing.
<div>
(fearfactory @ Aug. 22 2008,8:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2) Not sure what response you're looking at for Sheiko</div>
I brought up Sheiko as an attempt to illicit post #42, an expansion on your thoughts w/ regard to volume increases, and your opinion on the "sweet spot" (w/ regard to # of reps, % of 1RM, and occurring within a program as you've outlined) for strength increases.
am thoroughly enjoying your log, thank you for sharing.</div>
Honestly I haven't studied Sheiko enough to have a labcoat opinion, nor have experienced it to have a practical one
(fearfactory @ Aug. 22 2008,8:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">2) Not sure what response you're looking at for Sheiko</div>
I brought up Sheiko as an attempt to illicit post #42, an expansion on your thoughts w/ regard to volume increases, and your opinion on the "sweet spot" (w/ regard to # of reps, % of 1RM, and occurring within a program as you've outlined) for strength increases.
am thoroughly enjoying your log, thank you for sharing.</div>
Honestly I haven't studied Sheiko enough to have a labcoat opinion, nor have experienced it to have a practical one
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 21 2008,8:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't think I've posted it here, so here's a video of me chinning 145 from over the summer.
I have some other videos in my youtube profile, as well (some from a couple years ago for my PL competition).</div>
I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.
(mikeynov @ Aug. 21 2008,8:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't think I've posted it here, so here's a video of me chinning 145 from over the summer.
I have some other videos in my youtube profile, as well (some from a couple years ago for my PL competition).</div>
I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.
I
imported_fearfactory
Guest
the squat and deadlift videos are also awesome sauce
Mikey, what was your body weight at the time you chinned with 145lb? I'd like to know what you were effectively lifting in total. Also, can you use a similar load for a pull-up?
I've always made a note of my combined bw + weight lifted as when I am leaner and lighter I am able to lift substantially more than when I am fat and heavy. Same goes for dips.
Right now I can't chin because I have a right arm issue; my pull-ups are definitely weaker than my chins too. When my arm was okay I chinned with 100lb at a body weight of 220lb - so that's a 320lb combined total. I've always felt my back should be stronger than it is so I'm interested to know how much higher your total is than mine.
I've always made a note of my combined bw + weight lifted as when I am leaner and lighter I am able to lift substantially more than when I am fat and heavy. Same goes for dips.
Right now I can't chin because I have a right arm issue; my pull-ups are definitely weaker than my chins too. When my arm was okay I chinned with 100lb at a body weight of 220lb - so that's a 320lb combined total. I've always felt my back should be stronger than it is so I'm interested to know how much higher your total is than mine.
<div>
(Lol @ Aug. 23 2008,11:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey, what was your body weight at the time you chinned with 145lb? I'd like to know what you were effectively lifting in total. Also, can you use a similar load for a pull-up?
I've always made a note of my combined bw + weight lifted as when I am leaner and lighter I am able to lift substantially more than when I am fat and heavy. Same goes for dips.
Right now I can't chin because I have a right arm issue; my pull-ups are definitely weaker than my chins too. When my arm was okay I chinned with 100lb at a body weight of 220lb - so that's a 320lb combined total. I've always felt my back should be stronger than it is so I'm interested to know how much higher your total is than mine.</div>
My chin total, which I think is in that video, has peaked out in the past at just over 300 lbs, so that would put you ahead of me.
As for pullups, I have done > 100 lbs in the past in a double overhand style when I practiced them that way for a few weeks, but that was a couple years ago or more.
(Lol @ Aug. 23 2008,11:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mikey, what was your body weight at the time you chinned with 145lb? I'd like to know what you were effectively lifting in total. Also, can you use a similar load for a pull-up?
I've always made a note of my combined bw + weight lifted as when I am leaner and lighter I am able to lift substantially more than when I am fat and heavy. Same goes for dips.
Right now I can't chin because I have a right arm issue; my pull-ups are definitely weaker than my chins too. When my arm was okay I chinned with 100lb at a body weight of 220lb - so that's a 320lb combined total. I've always felt my back should be stronger than it is so I'm interested to know how much higher your total is than mine.</div>
My chin total, which I think is in that video, has peaked out in the past at just over 300 lbs, so that would put you ahead of me.
As for pullups, I have done > 100 lbs in the past in a double overhand style when I practiced them that way for a few weeks, but that was a couple years ago or more.
<div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Aug. 23 2008,9:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.</div>
hes also one of the few that will disappear when he turns sideways
(EL_VIEJO @ Aug. 23 2008,9:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.</div>
hes also one of the few that will disappear when he turns sideways
<div>
(Aaron_F @ Aug. 24 2008,5:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Aug. 23 2008,9:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.</div>
hes also one of the few that will disappear when he turns sideways</div>
Hatin' on the skinnies
(Aaron_F @ Aug. 24 2008,5:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Aug. 23 2008,9:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I watched a few of your videos. Very impressive. You just might be the strongest person strength/body-weight on this forum. That 145lb chin is incredible.</div>
hes also one of the few that will disappear when he turns sideways</div>
Hatin' on the skinnies