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Discussion in 'Training Logs' started by Totentanz, Aug 17, 2012.

  1. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    It does, and is pretty much impossible if you are working out alone. I just use my belt and chain as I would with actual chins. The only problem I see with rack chins vs regular is that it is easier to cheat on rack chins if you change leg positioning, and it can be difficult to get into position when using higher loads if you are alone. I did feel them in my lats well enough though.
  2. AderynGlas

    AderynGlas Member

    Do you guys also use such a wide grip on normal chins? I think if I used such a wide grip even with just my BW I'd rip/tear something. Although that might also be the reason why I don't feel any pull on my lat's. Tired slowing my chins right down today and it i think I could feel it at the top of my back/shoulders, but the fatigue set in on my arms.

    Any advice (wider grip I'm guessing)?
  3. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    It really depends. To me, chins usually mean an supinated or underhanded grip and when I use a grip like that, I go shoulder width at the widest, and pullups I always assume to mean pronated grip (palms facing away from the body) but with rack chins, I use a pronated grip and keep it wide. I used to to a supinated grip almost exclusively, but was not happy with my lat development. When I switched to a wider, pronated grip for pulldowns and such, I actually started to grow better lats. I still used neutral grip during seated rows and underhanded with bentover rows though, so I did not rely solely on a pronated grip for that.

    The problem I see with typical chins, for me anyway, is that my arms get too involved and since my biceps are very strong (I can curl an absurd amount of weight) I believe that was selling my lats short on the movement. So... basically, I think you will have to experiment with all three grips when hitting the back and see how it works for you. Don't forget that rows can really hammer your lats too when done right.
  4. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I find heavy DB Rows (3-5RM range) to be excellent for lat development. I've never managed to achieve quite the same results using BB Rows but my strength gains for BB Rows exceed those of DB. I hazard a guess that it's because the ROM for a BB Row is typically less than that for a DB Row and for lats this is especially relevant. BB also uses a lot more traps (or at least it certainly feels that way). I think the DB ROM better performs the 'down & back' function that lats have (mechanically speaking), although (Pendlay -how all BB Rows ought to be done) BB Rows are obviously very close to this.

    As far as chins/pulls are concerned, I find that supinated is not ideal for lats at heavy weight. Whether it's the angle, bicep involvement or something, but I can't quite manage the same results with the standard 'shoulder width, palms facing me' grip. I like a wide(r) grip, protonated and it might take me 1-2 reps to find the sweet spot. I also really like palms-facing each other using a medium/shoulder spaced bar attachment, but my old one gave up and died and I haven't found a reasonable replacement yet so using a close-grip instead atm.
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Not many people have access to gymnastic rings, but if you can use some you'll find that pull-ups are more comfortable because they allow your grip to rotate naturally during the movement.
  6. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Hey Totez, had a question regarding your diet. You've written a few times about your being on v.high protein intake. W/regard to that, during caloric surplus does the body utilise protein for muscle growth 1st and energy 2nd? Or vice versa. No priority? Am I just passing a lot of nitrogen through my body if I'm in in surplus but have low/near zero carbs (i.e. do the signalling pathways allow for building muscle/fat storage AND energy consumption from the same source - being protein) ... ?

    And how does this change during cutting? For example w/arbitrary #'s, lets say I'm taking 400gms protein, 70gms fat, 80gm's carbs to cut. Is that protein going towards preserving muscle mass or being used as energy first or are they essentially the same thing?
  7. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    In my experience and from my reading, it seems that using protein for energy is extremely difficult for the body. So I am fairly certain that when on a calorie surplus, next to no protein is used as energy. I don't see any possible scenario during a calorie surplus that you would not be taking in an energy source more preferable to the body than protein. During a cut, your body will produce ketones and seek to get energy that way before it will use neoglucogenesis to turnover protein. Of course protein breakdown will still be elevated but if your protein intake is high enough to match, it can compensate. You also see in diets like Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss diet where you essentially are fasting with little to no carbs or fats and ass-high amounts of protein that your body retains a lot of muscle when you would be expecting high turnover. The body seems to prefer digging into it's own fat stores before it will use the protein coming in to the system for energy.

    I don't have any sources to site right offhand, just recalling what I've absorbed from reading over the years, which anecdotally seems to be holding true through my own experiments with dieting.

    Sorry this post isn't more organized, I've had a hell of a last couple weeks at work and today was especially mentally taxing. If you want to do some searching on neoglucogenesis or gluconeogenesis you might be able to find more information.
  8. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    No dramas, that's basically all the confirmation I need, cheers bro.
  9. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Okay guys... Help me design my next cycle. Here is the equipment I have:

    A power rack with high and low pulley
    An adjustable bench
    One olympic bar and one EZ Curl bar

    ~300 lbs in weights

    No back squats or deads in the routine as I don't have enough weight for it to be worth it to include them in the cycle. I may be interested in doing front squats but legs aren't really a huge priority for me right now. Also, no standing overhead work as the ceiling is too low.
    What do you all think? I'm willing to try some different things. Just keep in mind that I will be doing this in my basement so I can't throw the weights around or anything crazy.
  10. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    I know you aren't fussed about your legs, but I'd like to know what lunges are like with 300lb on your back. They may well be non-trivial. :?

    Also, high-pulls with 300lb would be like a dynamic effort pull for you. Get that bar as high as you can. Just be sure to put it down gently so you keep the neighbours sweet. :)
  11. Kitavan

    Kitavan New Member

    Something like:-
    1) Barbell Hack Squat (as in deadlift behind legs)
    2) Bent-arm Barbell pullover (probably as an upper body "warm-up" not heavy)
    3) Neck Press (Vince Gironda's version of the Bench Press) that recruits more pec and less front delt, use a really wide grip)
    4) Teres Row (a lat pulldown using upper pulley, pulling to diaphragm and body leaning back 45 degrees at peak contraction)
    5) One-arm lateral raise from low pulley (crazy burn)
    6) Barbell Row (underhand grip)
    7) Front Barbell raise (don't want a 3rd press in the routine)
    8) Body drag barbell curl (a barbell curl which travels up extremely close to the body and good for peak contraction like a concentration curl)
    9) Close-grip bench press with EZ curl bar
    10) Reverse Curl (for brachialis anticus, deeper in the upper arm than the bicep)
    11) One-arm deadlift, the workload on the obliques is extreme
    12) Abdominal curl-ups, here

    2 sets. Standard HST, 15 - 10 - 5 format. At least there might be something interesting in there. Neck Presses are superb and very direct on the pecs.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  12. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I see some v.heavy chins/pulls in your future (assuming the power rack permits it).

    Obviously a fair few bench presses too.

    BB Rows seem a bit light with 300lbs ?
  13. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks for the input. I had actually considered high pulls already. I think I can do them in my rack with the safeties set at the lowest setting to keep the plates from hitting the floor, that has the plates just about half an inch above the floor.

    Unfortunately, I can't do chins or pullups die to the ceiling being too low, but I am most likely going to keep rack chins in. I can't do pulldowns because I have no way to keep myself on the bench when it gets heavy, and my max pulldown is greater than my bodyweight. I could, I suppose, try finding a belt for an obese man and use that maybe.

    BB rows I plan on doing. Since I won't be squatting or deadlifting, my lower back will be easily able to handle rowing three times a week. I also do not have the appropriate handle to do seated rows with my low pulley, so BB rows it is.

    I don't think I want to do any direct bicep work. I can BB curl 155 lbs for 5 reps, so I don't think the biceps are what are holding back my arms. I need more direct tricep work though I think. I will be back to comment more on this and start hammering out my routine after I go eat dinner.
  14. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    I might have missed it, but is there anything stopping you from joining a commercial gym with squat racks, machines, and all the other goodies?

    I used to be a "cellar dweller" but I now work out at a big gym, and I find it more motivating as well as superior with all the machines and huge amount of racks and weights around.
  15. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I had a great gym when I lived 80 miles from where I am now. The only gym nearby now is too far away to be convenient enough, whereas my old gym was literally five minutes away. Also, the new gym was not nearly as well equipped as my old gym and unfortunately, I was the biggest guy there so I didn't feel that competitive drive to prove myself since nobody the whole time I was there ever deadlifted and the most I saw anyone squat was two plates a side. I was almost embarrassed the last time I went because I was shrugging 405 while a guy came up next to be with 20 lb DBs and was doing shrugs as well.

    I will probably be getting some more equipment in a few months, but I'm most likely going to be living in this place for a couple years so I don't foresee another gym membership in my future.
  16. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    Based on this I would go with:

    Front Squats,
    Bench Press,
    BB Rows,
    Close Grip Presses or skullcrushers,
    Upright Rows, and/or Seated Presses for delts,
    Maybe some kind of cable pulls for back,
    maybe some curls.
  17. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    One thing I should note is that I will be bulking, goal is to hit 260 by spring... maybe more if I can handle carrying around that much fat. So definitely no direct core work. I have a thick midsection and I don't need it any thicker. My v taper sucks enough as it is due to my wide waist, broad hips and thick obliques. Obviously I won't ever be a bodybuilder doing any competitions as I don't have the proper body shape for that, but I don't need to make my situation any worse.

    So far, I'm considering the following...

    Front Squats
    BB Bench Press - maybe incline or decline
    BB Rows for sure
    Maybe shrugs, but I don't really need them
    High Pulls - pretty much really want to do these
    CGBP or skulls, probably CGBP because skulls are harder to do in my rack with the bench I have
    Rack Chins - Maybe not if I can't figure out a better way to add the weight without assistance
    Maybe pinwheel curls or something for forearms

    Maybe some kind of rehab stuff for the shoulders, as overhead work even while seated seems to annoy my shoulders. Not sure what to do for that though.
  18. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    260! :eek: When you're not training, you're going to be stuffing your face! How are you going to find time to do any work? Or are you a chef? :D

    Re high-pulls: there are several different ways to do these.

    Here's a more unusual snatch grip variation
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  19. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I work for a management company that has several restaurants that I have to visit on a regular basis, so I pretty much can eat whenever I want at work. It makes bulking a lot easier. The only bad thing is that I'm one of the top guys at the place and my job description is really vague... IT work sometimes, electrician sometimes, training people other times, and so on, so the job can get pretty demanding and time consuming. That only gets in the way of my workouts, eating is never the issue though. 260 will be a challenge though. That will definitely be pushing my body to a size it's never been before... right now it seems very happy to maintain 235-240, since I ended my diet, I have not been monitoring my eating, just going by hunger and my weight is staying within that five pound range. So we will see what happens.

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