benefit of cardio on off days

faz

Active Member
im not a science geek but if i am understanding this correctly intense cardio keeps protein synthesis ticking over for 3 days..i day longer than resistance training,so doing cardio HIIT on of days is a good idea.
maybe some of the more science based guys can comment.
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Haus JM, Miller BF, Carroll CC, Weinheimer EM, Trappe TA.
Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana, USA.

Relatively little is known about the dynamics of the skeletal muscle protein pool following aerobic exercise. Myofibrillar protein synthesis has recently been shown to be substantially elevated for 3 days after a strenuous 60 min bout of one-legged aerobic exercise, and this increase was surprisingly equal to or greater than what has been shown numerous times following resistance exercise over the same time course. Because net protein accretion is the sum of protein synthesis and degradation, we sought to directly measure skeletal muscle myofibrillar proteolysis in five healthy young males in response to an identical strenuous 60 min aerobic exercise bout and at the same time points (rest, 6, and 24 h post-exercise and 48 and 72 h post-exercise in a subset of subjects). We measured skeletal muscle myofibrillar proteolysis by monitoring the release of the natural tracer 3-methylhistidine (3MH) from the vastus lateralis muscle into the interstitial space via microdialysis. Skeletal muscle interstitial 3MH concentration was no different (P>0.05) from rest (5.16+/-0.38 nmol/mL) after 6 (5.37+/-0.55 nmol/mL), 24 (5.40+/-0.26 nmol/mL), 48 (5.50+/-0.74 nmol/mL), or 72 h (4.73+/-0.28 nmol/mL). These results suggest that proteolysis of the myofibrillar fraction of skeletal muscle is relatively refractory to an intense aerobic exercise stimulus for up to 3 days, despite the large increase in synthesis of this muscle fraction following the same exercise stimulus. The apparent net myofibrillar protein accretion in the hours and days after exercise may occur in order to offset the large elevation in mixed muscle proteolysis that has been shown during similar bouts of intense one-legged aerobic exercise.

PMID: 16787442 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
 
I am not sure about protein synthesis but....i do 10-15 minutes of HIIT in the morning and the evening on every other off day and TKD on every off day. I think it is true with legs but....for arms....out of experience it does not help. I think HIIT is a great theory for fat burning but i use my own suped up version on my stationary:

Warmup: 1 minute around 12-13mph

High Intensity: 3-5 minutes 25+mph(just be careful since your legs will be moving very fast.)

Cool down: 8-12mph for 3-5 minutes

Then I go and drink a protein shake. I actually am gaining leg muscle from doing this kind of workout. It is basically the equivalent of sprinting.
 
would be intersted to here what some of the guys with a more scientific background thought.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">im not a science geek but if i am understanding this correctly intense cardio keeps protein synthesis ticking over for 3 days..i day longer than resistance training,so doing cardio HIIT on of days is a good idea. Maybe some of the more science based guys can comment.</div>

I am not a geek either although a scientist, yes, but oooooh I just love it when I am doing teh right thing.

The Dr. Tabata study indicate fat burning benefits 9x that of conventional cardio. That is why I do Tabata on off days, you just can't beat 4 minutes of cardio, I wonder why they don't advertise it on TV
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After all it is just 4 minutes, but yes, it is not for potato couches
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''The apparent net myofibrillar protein accretion in the hours and days after exercise may occur in order to offset the large elevation in mixed muscle proteolysis.''

proteolysis means the breakdown of protein. I think what they are saying is that the protein synthesis occurs to make sure you don't actually lose muscle mass, rather than having a hypertrophic benefit?
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;These results suggest that proteolysis of the myofibrillar fraction of skeletal muscle is relatively refractory to an intense aerobic exercise stimulus for up to 3 days, despite the large increase in synthesis of this muscle fraction following the same exercise stimulus&quot;</div>

As far as im aware refractory means something along the lines of resistant? Why they gotta use uncommon words  
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If thats right i think theyre saying despite the large increase in protein synthesis of the myofibrilliar fraction of muscle, protein breakdown doesnt increase by the same amount.

Then that this large increase in protein synthesis &amp; not breakdown of the myofibrillar fraction may occur in order to offset the elevation in protein breakdown in other parts of the muscle...
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(Fausto @ Dec. 06 2006,08:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">im not a science geek but if i am understanding this correctly intense cardio keeps protein synthesis ticking over for 3 days..i day longer than resistance training,so doing cardio HIIT on of days is a good idea. Maybe some of the more science based guys can comment.</div>

I am not a geek either although a scientist, yes, but oooooh I just love it when I am doing teh right thing.

The Dr. Tabata study indicate fat burning benefits 9x that of conventional cardio. That is why I do Tabata on off days, you just can't beat 4 minutes of cardio, I wonder why they don't advertise it on TV
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After all it is just 4 minutes, but yes, it is not for potato couches
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I didn't know what Tabata was, so I did a search. It looks like an intense cardio workout. So my question is, would it effect your recovery if you did it on your rest days? Especially if you did squats or something like that in it? I would like to give it a try, but am thinking it might be best to do it on the same day as your lifting days. I lift at 8:00pm mwf, so I am thinking I might try it 6:00am mwf. What do you think?
 
I thought about this once but it gave me a headache so I stopped
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Well load stimulates hypertrophy right? So say you're running and your leg hits the ground, the entire weight of your body lands on your leg muscles, so they get stimulated under load. Your arms are just swinging side to side so they don't have a load imposed on them, so they don't grow. Same with cycling, especially uphill riding, quads can grow quite big because they have load applied to them.

Also rowers have big back muscles and swimmers have big shoulders...Coincidence? I think not. Its just repetitively applying load to the muscle (smaller load, more volume than weights). Muscles will only grow to a certain size though because after a certain size more work will not stimulate growth, it takes more load (hence heavier weights of HST).
 
Good thing about cardio on a stationary bike is that you can adjust the watts as your muscles grow until you max-out your bike.
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Long article on benefits &amp; disadvantages of doing both cardio and resistance training:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The first and most important finding is that aerobic exercise — provided that you don't do too much of it — does not interfere with gains in muscle size. In fact, several studies show that it can actually help you build muscle faster.

In one 10-week trial carried in the journal Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, researchers assigned a group of 30 healthy (but untrained) male subjects to one of three groups [12].

• Group one lifted weights for three days each week. The training program involved eight exercises. Four sets of 5-7 repetitions were completed for each exercise. The first set served as a warm-up. Subsequent sets were taken to the point of muscular failure. Subjects rested for 60-90 seconds between sets.

• Group two completed three sessions of moderate-intensity aerobic exercise (cycling at 70% heart rate reserve) each week. Each workout lasted 50 minutes.

• Subjects in group three combined the two programs. Both workouts were performed on the same day, with the order of strength and aerobic exercise rotated each training day. Subjects rested for 10-20 minutes between workouts.

Combining aerobic and resistance exercise didn't impair muscle growth. In fact, growth in the quadriceps (the group of muscles on the front of your thighs) was greatest in the group combining the two workouts. What's more, when muscle fibers in the thigh were measured, those in the combined group were larger than those in the resistance-only group.

The same research group published similar findings several years previously [11]. One group of men trained with weights (4 sets per exercise, 5-7 repetitions per set), while an aerobics-only group performed 50 minutes of cycling at 70% of heart rate reserve. The combined group did both workouts in a single session. Both groups trained three times per week.

The men lifting weights made virtually identical strength gains in both the squat and bench press, irrespective of whether they did aerobic exercise. Gains in muscle mass were slightly greater in the combined group compared to those lifting weights.

A team of strength-training experts from Finland report similar findings [4]. The scientists, based at the University of Jyväskylä, tested the effect of 21 weeks of aerobic exercise on muscle size, strength and power in a group of healthy men [4]. One group lifted weights twice each week, while group two performed the same workout but did an extra 30-60 minutes of cycling on separate days twice per week.

The result? Aerobic exercise had no negative effect on muscle size or strength. Once again, muscle growth in the legs was greatest in the group combining aerobic and resistance exercise.

Research published in the Journal of Applied Physiology also shows that aerobic exercise has a beneficial effect on muscle growth [3]. Thirty physically active healthy men were assigned to one of three groups for 10 weeks. The men in one group spent three days a week running or jogging (25-40 minutes at 65-85% of their age-derived maximum heart rate), while a resistance-only group trained with weights. A combined group performed both routines on the same day of the week, always doing the weight training first.

The resistance exercise program involved a combination of free weights and fixed resistance machines. The program was divided into upper-body exercises (performed on Monday), lower-body exercises (performed on Wednesday), and both upper- and lower-body exercises (performed on Friday).

During the first two weeks of the program, subjects performed 10-15 repetitions per set, with three sets per exercise. During the final eight weeks, the resistance was set so that failure to lift the weight occurred at 10-12 repetitions on the first set, 8-10 repetitions on the second set, and 4-8 repetitions on the third set.

As with the previous studies, the combined group gained the most, completing the study with an extra seven pounds of muscle. The resistance-only group made slightly slower progress, averaging a five-pound gain by week ten.

So, what do these studies tell us?

Firstly, the addition of 1-2 hours of moderate-intensity aerobic exercise (such as cycling at 65-85% of your age-derived maximum heart rate) to a three-day per week weight training program does not impede gains in muscle size. On the contrary, it appears to help rather than hinder growth. The question is, how?

Both resistance and aerobic exercise increase the ability of your body to remove sugar and other nutrients from the blood [15]. However, both forms of exercise work in a different way. When you train with weights, you gain muscle. And it's this extra muscle that removes these nutrients from your blood.

Aerobic exercise, on the other hand, enhances nutrient uptake independently of changes in muscle mass, increasing both the number and function of glucose transporters. These help to transport glucose (sugar) from the blood into the muscle. It's possible that the rise in nutrient uptake translates into greater muscle growth.

Aerobic exercise also increases capillary density. Capillaries deliver oxygen, nutrients (such as protein, carbohydrate, and fat), and hormones (such as testosterone) to muscle cells. All are vital for muscle growth. Capillaries also remove heat and metabolic by-products from the active muscle tissue. The number of capillaries per muscle fiber increases to a greater extent after 12 weeks of combined training, compared to resistance exercise alone [18].

What's more, aerobic exercise has the potential to improve the quality of your weight training workouts. Studies show that the fitter you are, the faster your body can recover between sets when you're training with weights [17].

Muscle strength
On the flip side, there's some bad news for anyone wanting to gain strength and power. Although these studies show greater muscle growth with a combination of resistance and aerobic exercise, improvements in strength and power — in almost all cases — were reduced [3, 4, 11, 12].

In the early stages of an exercise program, differences in strength gains between resistance-only and combined training aren't easy to detect, usually becoming more pronounced after 9-10 weeks of training [5].

However, simultaneous training compromises gains in strength only when both modes of training use the same muscles. Some evidence for this comes from a research group based at Pennsylvania State University [9]. This study is especially interesting because all subjects were members of the US Army, and very physically active. What's more, the aerobic exercise program incorporated high-intensity interval exercise, which is a lot more physically demanding than conventional forms of aerobic exercise.

Training took place four days per week (Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday). The group combining both aerobic and resistance exercise trained twice per day, running in the morning and lifting weights 5-6 hours later. In other words, this was a very demanding program followed by a group of highly motivated individuals.

Although gains in lower body strength were reduced in the groups combining resistance and aerobic exercise, gains in upper body strength were similar in both the combined and resistance-only group.

Endurance exercise
But, that's only half the story. While concurrent aerobic and resistance exercise tends to limit gains in strength, the addition of explosive strength training to an endurance-training program actually enhances endurance performance [1, 6, 7, 8, 13].

A good example comes from research published in the Journal of Applied Physiology [14]. A group of elite cross-country runners was assigned to one of two groups. Group one replaced roughly one-third of their regular endurance-training program (which involved an average of 8-9 hours per week of exercise) with explosive-type strength training. This involved various sprints, jumping exercises, and leg exercises using light weights but fast lifting speeds. Group two continued with their regular training program.

The group using the explosive-type strength training improved their best five-kilometer (roughly three miles) race time without a change in their aerobic fitness. Instead, the faster race times were due to improvements in the neuromuscular system (the &quot;chain of command&quot; that transmits signals from the brain to the muscle). This reduced the energy cost of running — known as running economy.

Although strength and power are often confused, the two aren't the same thing. Strength is the ability to generate force, while maximal strength is the maximal force generated in a given action, such as the bench press. Power, on the other hand, refers to the work done per unit of time. It's often measured using the maximum rate of force development, which is a measure of your ability to produce maximal force in minimal time. High rates of force development are necessary for success in &quot;explosive&quot; activities such as sprinting, and throwing.</div>
 
David

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So my question is, would it effect your recovery if you did it on your rest days? Especially if you did squats or something like that in it?</div>

It might affect it yes, but I seriously think not if you are doing everything else right, after all it is only 4 minutes. Quite intense yes! But it can be done with a whole lot of different things besides the stat bike, stuff like rowing, punching bag, running etc etc.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> I would like to give it a try, but am thinking it might be best to do it on the same day as your lifting days. I lift at 8:00pm mwf, so I am thinking I might try it 6:00am mwf. What do you think? </div>

I have not yet tried the morning thing but am thinking of doing excatly that, my motto try it and if it works post it in here with opinions and all the variables so that the guys can use it!
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The classic study of the effects of concurrent endurance training and strength training comes from this source:

Remember what you guys call cardio is NOT endurance! One of the conclusions was that training for endurance hampered strength gains. The opposite was NOT true.

Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1980;45(2-3):255-63. Links
Interference of strength development by simultaneously training for strength and endurance.

Hickson RC.
The purpose of this study was to determine how individuals adapt to a combination of strength and endurance training as compared to the adaptations produced by either strength or endurance training separately. There were three exercise groups: a strength group (S) that exercised 30--40 min . day-1, 5 days . week-1, and endurance group (E) that exercised 40 min . day-1, 6 days . week-1; and an S and E group that performed the same daily exercise regimens as the S and E groups. After 10 weeks of training, VO2max increased approx. 25% when measured during bicycle exercise and 20% when measured during treadmill exercise in both E, and S and E groups. No increase in VO2max was observed in the S group. There was a consistent rate of development of leg-strength by the S group throughout the training, whereas the E group did not show any appreciable gains in strength. The rate of strength improvement by the S and E group was similar to the S group for the first 7 weeks of training, but subsequently leveled off and declined during the 9th and 10th weeks. These findings demonstrate that simultaneously training for S and E will result in a reduced capacity to develop strength, but will not affect the magnitude of increase in VO2max.
 
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(Fausto @ Dec. 07 2006,05:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">David

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So my question is, would it effect your recovery if you did it on your rest days? Especially if you did squats or something like that in it?</div>

It might affect it yes, but I seriously think not if you are doing everything else right, after all it is only 4 minutes. Quite intense yes! But it can be done with a whole lot of different things besides the stat bike, stuff like rowing, punching bag, running etc etc.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> I would like to give it a try, but am thinking it might be best to do it on the same day as your lifting days. I lift at 8:00pm mwf, so I am thinking I might try it 6:00am mwf. What do you think? </div>

I have not yet tried the morning thing but am thinking of doing excatly that, my motto try it and if it works post it in here with opinions and all the variables so that the guys can use it!
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Thanks, I plan on starting it next week. Hopefuly it doesn't kill me. I don't know how much it will help people to post my results, since I am a noob. But I probably will anyway.
 
Just make sure you compensate for the amount of energy expendec throught the day because you do not want to have an accidental deficit in calories. This shouldn't be a problem if you are eating a surplus of at least 500 calories.

Goodluck with your aerobics!
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David

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks, I plan on starting it next week. Hopefuly it doesn't kill me.</div>

It shouldn't, unless you have heart problems
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my suggestion apply your own pace for the fast pace part of the routine, and increase as you get fitter, remember one of the benefits of Tabata is increased aerobic fitness, i.o.w. increased VO2 max absorption (that means oxygen utilisation).

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't know how much it will help people to post my results, since I am a noob. But I probably will anyway. </div>

It always helps, try doing a before photo now and then post after 8 weeks to see difference in results!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The Dr. Tabata study indicate fat burning benefits 9x that of conventional cardio. That is why I do Tabata on off days, you just can't beat 4 minutes of cardio, I wonder why they don't advertise it on TV</div>
Fausto, which exercise do you use for this training protocol? Is it squats or just running - biking? Also, does that &quot;Tabata on off days&quot; mean that you do it 3-4x a week? I'm trying to lose a bit of fat at the moment and I would be interested in trying this.

Edit: Oh, and what about warming up? Thanks,

Dimitris
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto, which exercise do you use for this training protocol? Is it squats or just running - biking? </div>

Just stationary bike for now...migh start introducing some running if I don't see results.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, does that &quot;Tabata on off days&quot; mean that you do it 3-4x a week? I'm trying to lose a bit of fat at the moment and I would be interested in trying this.</div>

For now it is on off days, I am doing a 2 x week protocol so the other three days I do Tabata, I am tempted to start doing it in the morning fasted...might find interesting results.
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I have been a bit lazy...and some home things have gotten in the way, but I am still trying it anyway bettter some than none!

Yesterday for one, I did it before the workout and it was fine, took about 10 minutes off and then started with deadlifts, no problems so far!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh, and what about warming up? Thanks,</div>

The Tabata protocol specifies that you could do 1 minute at 70% or so as warm-up, if you running jog at a fair pace, then start, when I first started I did not warm-up just did it! One thing my VO2Max is getting better, using the same speed and resitance I cannot get my pulse past 130, it used to get to 150!
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