Benefits from training to faulire

[Giovanni]

Hi!
Is any benefits from training to faulire?If don't, why so many lifters do this?Is any scientific study on this?
What I now is faulire training makes you need to recover your NS, and this takes longer than the muscle worked.
Also, this make you get tired many days after training, instead of felling energetic.
Any comments is welcome and I sorry if I made something wrong.
Thank you and happy lifting!!

Giovanni(the brasilian HST)

 

[Bob Evans]

I am not saying this is the definative answer but I can think of two reasons to train to failure.

1) EGO It feeds ones ego to go as heavy as possible. This is the biggest reason many guys do it... that mixed with lack of knowlege, and mixed with some of the propeganda from the MAGS..."it is not that our suplements don't work it is you are not working hard enough"

2) Going to failure will "train" your CNS in a way, and improve muscle recruitment (strength) for the given size and amount of muscle you have... so for some sports this is important. That said, training to failure ---even when done with a specific goal ---should be done judiciously ... too much will get you in trouble.


have you ever been twiching and shaking like a leaf after a workout?

Bob

 

[Giovanni]

Hi!Thank's for the post

So, training to faulire is important for strength..so, you will gain strength more fast by training to faulire or sub-faulire?
Power-lifters train to faulire??
Is faulire important for mass gains?
I think that these trainers that follow the hardgainer trainer by doing 2 sets per mov., whit lower reps(5-8) doing 2 mini-fullbody a week and eating good get very good strength and size gains, but it is not optional, since if whit increased frequence to 3 times a week, they will gain more.Really??
I am asking it because now I only have the time to train 2 times a week.I am using the 15/10/5, but only whit 4 increments in 2 weeks and going to faulire to compensate to the reduced frequence.I will go now to my second week(the last of the 15's) and I am liking the felling.Even training to faulire, I still fell better then the 5-8 reps, one set to faulire,HIT that only give-me strength gains(my first cycle now is to be 2 sets for compounds, and 1 for isolations.
I will keep all posted untill i forget it and try the original HST plan(that,on paper and lokking to the principles of grow, will work better than the program I am doing now)

Giovanni

 

[Fausto]

Giovanni

Training to failure is against HST principles, however we can get a bit more specific.

1 - You will need more time to recover so I feel that you will loose the opportunity of frequency - thus hypertrophy will ultimatelly be delayed or stunted to an extent.

2 - I cannot see where it will increase strength, as you will have to rest longer periods, thus again passing up the opportunity of pushing the barrier a little further. Strength training is not always taken to that extreme, but simply using heavy weights and low reps.

3 - More is gained from beating repeated bout effect than to let it beat you, as that way you can push alittle further each time.

My views for what they are worth, I am pretty sure that either DKM1987 or Aaron F, can get a little more specific with scientific evidence.

 

[Aaron_F]

can be useful for strength

Training leading to repetition failure enhances bench press strength gains in elite junior athletes.

Drinkwater EJ, Lawton TW, Lindsell RP, Pyne DB, Hunt PH, McKenna MJ.

Department of Physiology, Australian Institute of Sport, Canberra, ACT, Australia. [email protected]

The purpose of this study was to investigate the importance of training leading to repetition failure in the performance of 2 different tests: 6 repetition maximum (6RM) bench press strength and 40-kg bench throw power in elite junior athletes. Subjects were 26 elite junior male basketball players (n = 12; age = 18.6 +/- 0.3 years; height = 202.0 +/- 11.6 cm; mass = 97.0 +/- 12.9 kg; mean +/- SD) and soccer players (n = 14; age = 17.4 +/- 0.5 years; height = 179.0 +/- 7.0 cm; mass = 75.0 +/- 7.1 kg) with a history of greater than 6 months' strength training. Subjects were initially tested twice for 6RM bench press mass and 40-kg Smith machine bench throw power output (in watts) to establish retest reliability. Subjects then undertook bench press training with 3 sessions per week for 6 weeks, using equal volume programs (24 repetitions x 80-105% 6RM in 13 minutes 20 seconds). Subjects were assigned to one of two experimental groups designed either to elicit repetition failure with 4 sets of 6 repetitions every 260 seconds (RF(4 x 6)) or allow all repetitions to be completed with 8 sets of 3 repetitions every 113 seconds (NF(8 x 3)). The RF(4 x 6) treatment elicited substantial increases in strength (7.3 +/- 2.4 kg, +9.5%, p < 0.001) and power (40.8 +/- 24.1 W, +10.6%, p < 0.001), while the NF(8 x 3) group elicited 3.6 +/- 3.0 kg (+5.0%, p < 0.005) and 25 +/- 19.0 W increases (+6.8%, p < 0.001). The improvements in the RF(4 x 6) group were greater than those in the repetition rest group for both strength (p < 0.005) and power (p < 0.05). Bench press training that leads to repetition failure induces greater strength gains than nonfailure training in the bench press exercise for elite junior team sport athletes.

but it has to be balanced. If training to failure lowers the ability to train frequently then its not much point.

 

[Fausto]

Well, thanks Aaron for the scientific evidence.

But it certainly is not advocated in HST, and it is no good for hypertrophy, specifically over time, as it may initially cause some growth.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Sep. 26 2005,5:11)]Training leading to repetition failure enhances bench press strength gains in elite junior athletes.
Drinkwater EJ, Lawton TW, Lindsell RP, Pyne DB, Hunt PH, McKenna MJ.
Department of Physiology, Australian Institute of Sport, Canberra, ACT, Australia. [email protected]
The purpose of this study was to investigate the importance of training leading to repetition failure in the performance of 2 different tests: 6 repetition maximum (6RM) bench press strength and 40-kg bench throw power in elite junior athletes. Subjects were 26 elite junior male basketball players (n = 12; age = 18.6 +/- 0.3 years; height = 202.0 +/- 11.6 cm; mass = 97.0 +/- 12.9 kg; mean +/- SD) and soccer players (n = 14; age = 17.4 +/- 0.5 years; height = 179.0 +/- 7.0 cm; mass = 75.0 +/- 7.1 kg) with a history of greater than 6 months' strength training. Subjects were initially tested twice for 6RM bench press mass and 40-kg Smith machine bench throw power output (in watts) to establish retest reliability. Subjects then undertook bench press training with 3 sessions per week for 6 weeks, using equal volume programs (24 repetitions x 80-105% 6RM in 13 minutes 20 seconds). Subjects were assigned to one of two experimental groups designed either to elicit repetition failure with 4 sets of 6 repetitions every 260 seconds (RF(4 x 6)) or allow all repetitions to be completed with 8 sets of 3 repetitions every 113 seconds (NF(8 x 3)). The RF(4 x 6) treatment elicited substantial increases in strength (7.3 +/- 2.4 kg, +9.5%, p < 0.001) and power (40.8 +/- 24.1 W, +10.6%, p < 0.001), while the NF(8 x 3) group elicited 3.6 +/- 3.0 kg (+5.0%, p < 0.005) and 25 +/- 19.0 W increases (+6.8%, p < 0.001). The improvements in the RF(4 x 6) group were greater than those in the repetition rest group for both strength (p < 0.005) and power (p < 0.05). Bench press training that leads to repetition failure induces greater strength gains than nonfailure training in the bench press exercise for elite junior team sport athletes.
but it has to be balanced.  If training to failure lowers the ability to train frequently then its not much point.

Aaron, do you have the full text of that or the reference sheet? I read the excerpts Blade posted at Bodyrecomp, interesting but I would love to see the reference list.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

HST does not advocate training to failure because it can interfere with training frequency. Strength recovery requires more time when fatigue is extreme.

This does not mean that you will use lighter weight loads than when training to failure. Nor does it mean you will be doing any fewer reps. It only means that each set will be stopped short of failure in favor of doing another set.

 

[spikehead]

Does this mean we should avoid failure at all times during HST or are there periods of time, such as the two weeks of 5s at the same weight and the negs, where failure is OK?

 

[jvroig]

You can train to failure as often as you want or all you want, as long as it doesn't bother your workout. If you can manage to do that, well, good for you.

We don't want to train to failure and generally just avoid overtraining because we want to keep the frequency of our training. This in turn is because we want to create an environment more conducive to hypertrophy.

To avoid confusion, simply think of the "rules" like "don't train to failure" and "avoid overtraining" as simply a means, a method, to achieve a certain goal, which in this case is training frequency (which, as stated above is a means to create an environment that is more conducive to hypertrophy, which is our ultimate goal).

So can you train to failure some times? Sure, go ahead, as long as you know it won't mess up your workout, or you have some means to offset it, like doing it at the end of a 2-week block so you have a little zigzag (because your starting weights for the next RM phase is lower than your ending weights at the RM phase before that) to let your CNS recover a bit.

Hope that helps clear it up.

Regards,
-JV

 

[Fausto]

Thanks JV & Bryan (for the backup)
and Aaron (for the science)

We are not quite saying don't do it! You can, but within HST that is not feasible due to the fact that it will eventually upset the training frequency.

So...we have seen that it works for strength, and leads to some hypertrophy, but it is not the ideal suitable training protocol for rapid hypertrophy.

Without adding more to the already thick soup, we would like you to understand the basic principles of HST and then beyond that, you are the owner of whatever system you use, but that does not mean it falls within HST.