Can protein eating patterns be manipulated to put

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Ruhl, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. Ruhl

    Ruhl New Member

    People on a high protein diet put extra stress on the kidneys. I was wondering whether eating protein in small amounts frequently will place less strain on the kidneys than eating a large amount in one meal.

    Also, is eating some of my protein in the middle of the night a good or a bad idea? Do the kidneys need a break during the night?
  2. Joe G

    Joe G New Member

    I wouldnt worry about putting stress on your kidneys from eating too much protein.

    One of the functions of the kidneys is the excretion of WASTES and foreign substances. Through urine the kidneys excrete wastes that have NO useful function in the body. These could be wastes as a result of ammonia and urea from the deamination of amino acids, bilirubin from the catabolism of hemoglobin, creatinine from the breakdown of creatine phosphate in muscle fibers, and uric acid from the catabolism of nucleic acids. Other things would include toxins and other drugs.

    As you know protein is not stored in the human body, instead amino acids are either oxidized to produce ATP or used to synthesize new proteins for your body to grow and repair itself. The excess of dietary amino acids arent excreted in the urine or as feces but are converted into glucose or triglycerides.

    So in my humble opinion I think you have more to worry about your kidneys if your supplementing with Creatine everyday than you would with taking in too much protein. Your body can synthesize large amounts of protein at one sitting and the proteins that arent get converted to sugars and fats which is just gonna make you fatter not bigger.

    Joe G
  3. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    may I suggest that you get a basic anatomy/physiology text and look that up, as you are slightly misplaced in your thoughts.
  4. Joe G

    Joe G New Member

    "During digestion, proteins are broken down into amino acids. Unlike carbohydrates and triglycerides, which are stored, proteins are not warehoused for future use. Instead, amino acids are either oxidized to produce ATP or used to synthesize new proteins for body growth and repair. Excess dietary amino acids are not excreted in the urine or feces but instead are converted into glucose (glucogenesis) or triglycerides (lipogensis)." Principles of Anatomy and Physiology, Tortora and Derrickson, page 967.

    I would be interested in any thoughts you have on Ruhls question Aaron for I am not a doctor or nutritionsit yet.

    Joe G
  5. xarfox

    xarfox New Member


    he told you!!!
  6. Staxx

    Staxx New Member

  7. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    thats nice you have found what happens to the carbon chain of the amino acid (which are ultimately no different than glucose or fatty acids, a source of energy), now look up what happens to the nitrogen (hint: you have already mentioned it) and where it is excreted, and what this process (in excess) does to the kidney.
    and in terms of Ruhls question about how to eat protein to lower stress on the kidney. Basically its a matter of eating less protein.
  8. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Please note Aaron's note "IN EXCESS" this is important when you start looking at nitrogen and renal function. What constitutes "in excess" varies greatly between active healthy and sedentary, ill or aged.
  9. thehamma

    thehamma New Member

    Real classy post Aaron, condescending as usual.  I thought the topic of conversation that you said JoeG was wrong about was
    To my understanding he was correct,and after you called him out and he proved himself to be correct in his post you then changed the focus of what he was wrong about to how nitrogen is excreted in the kidneys.

    Instead of trying to point out other peoples apparent mistakes why don't you make some suggestions, or solutions or answer the post yourself? I guess its easier to make one-liner condescending remarks.
  10. xarfox

    xarfox New Member


    2 FOR 2!!
  11. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    So its condacending?
    Maybe agreeing with false informaton would be better than providing a reply. OR would you prefer a reply that was flled with hugs and kisses? If I was being condacending my reply would not have been polite.
    well lets see about that.
    Amino acids have both amino groups (NH2) and carboxylic acid groups.

    THe carboxylic acid group are acids characterised by the carboxyl group at the end (COOH)

    Fatty acids are also a form of carboxylic acid.

    THe physioligocal reference joe provided was looking at the carboxylic acid end of the equation, but seeing as he was talking about AMINO acids, then to ignore the AMINO group is to ignore a major part of AMINO acid metabolism and excretion.

    or do you think AMINO acids do not contain AMINO groups? maybe the name confused you?

    No, its easier not to make comments at all and let people continue to present false information.

    Or maybe you are such a blubbering vagina that you think anyone who posts short comments are being condacending? if so, maybe you should ignore everything I say because I dont really give a ####.
  12. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    IMO, it hasn't really been shown that high protein does put extra stress on the kidneys in healthy people. There are many accounts of very high intake with no adverse affects.

    Secondly, I wouldn't worry much about creatine either, if you are healthy.

    If these are concerns then I would suggest you visit your nephrologist and have your kidney function checked out.
  13. Joe G

    Joe G New Member

    Basically what I was trying to say in the thread was that in almost all occasions you do not have to worry about the effects of protein on the liver. Somehow this got lost...

    Conversations should not have to be taken to this extent for guys on the forum to give input or advice. Some guys like to nitpick at very small or even irrelevant points that do not have a large impact on the question at hand just for the sake of argument. This doesnt get us anywhere when trying to apply our knowledge in order to get results. How much easier would have it been for you Aaron to just say "Well Joe you forgot to include the effects excess Nitrogen has on renal function?" Which is minimal anyway.

    Dan, it is true it has been found that BUN has been linked to excessive protein intake or protein catabolism, but like you said high protein diets do not really show stress on the kidneys in healthy people. However I do feel that in the long run there is a potential for creatine to have adverse on the kidneys, but well agree to disagree on that one for now.

    This is the essence of the question in which I answered over a week ago.

    Joe G
  14. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Ok, we'll agree to disagree....... For now ;)
  15. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Raising the protein content of the diet will stress the kidney, increasing glomerual filtration rate etc. But whether it does anything negative or not is a bit unknown. Especially since high protien (research) is usually substantially lower than high protein (bbing)


    that and a large proportion of people in USA has reduced kidney function
  16. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    not quite minimal

    BBrs routinely eat 200+grams of protein per day, where as a normal person eats ~110g per day.

    That basic difference will increase nitrogen excretion ~50-100% increasing GFR and increases the work the kidney has to do.

    So how is creatine adverse to the kidneys?
  17. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    This depends on type of protein. Milk, Egg White and Cheese do not affect GFR the same as meat.

    Edited note: Naturally it depends on amount also.
  18. skinnyman

    skinnyman New Member

    uhm i bringing up this topic again.
    i've read that a diet high in anirmal protein makes the body excretes 60% more calcium, making the urine acidic, which increases the risk of developing kidney stones.
    it's even on the oprah website! lol here

    what's confusing is the definition of "high protein". how high is "high protein" anyway? they didn't give any definition.
  19. bgrand

    bgrand New Member

    Whatever you do, make sure you drink lot's of water to help those kidneys out. I know that much protein for an UNhealthy kidney is bad, but where is there research to prove that for example 1.5g/poundBW protein everyday will make a healthy kidney unhealthy?
  20. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    (skinnyman @ Aug. 21 2006,20:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">uhm i bringing up this topic again.
    i've read that a diet high in anirmal protein makes the body excretes 60% more calcium, making the urine acidic, which increases the risk of developing kidney stones.</div>
    The body excretes more calcium on a high protein diet, including plant protiens.

    But the balance of calcium is the same or better than a low protein diet, because raising the protein intake rasies calcium uptake.

    Meat and soy protein affect calcium homeostasis in healthy women.Kerstetter JE, Wall DE, O'Brien KO, Caseria DM, Insogna KL.
    Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT, USA. [email protected]

    We showed that increasing dietary protein from omnivorous sources increases intestinal calcium absorption and urinary calcium, whereas a low-protein diet decreases calcium absorption and lowers urinary calcium. To assess the effect of soy protein on this relation, we substituted soy for meat in high- and low-protein diets fed to healthy women. The study consisted of a 2-wk adjustment period followed by a 4-d experimental period in which 20 healthy women consumed, in random order, the following 4 diets: high-protein soy-based, low-protein soy-based, high-protein meat-based, low-protein meat-based. Measures of calcium homeostasis were evaluated at baseline and after 4 d of the experimental period. At 24 h, net acid excretion was higher during the high- compared with the low-protein intervention (P &lt; 0.05), and during the meat compared with the soy intervention (P &lt; 0.05). The high-protein diets increased 24-h urinary calcium (P &lt; 0.001), but urinary calcium did not differ due to the type of protein. Serum concentrations of parathyroid hormone and calcitriol, and urinary nephrogenous cAMP were higher during the low- compared with the high-protein intervention and during the soy compared with the meat protein (P &lt; 0.05). In a subset of subjects, intestinal calcium absorption tended to be lower (P = 0.1) when they consumed the soy diets rather than the meat diets. These data indicate that when soy protein is substituted for meat protein, there is an acute decline in dietary calcium bioavailability.

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