cluster HST and 912 Hst

[b said:
Quote[/b] (SteGro @ June 11 2005,7:37)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What's weird is that ilfacell and I (well, almost entirely him) came up with an idea like 912 almost 2 years ago (literally two weeks on, 7-9 day SD). For the record, it actually works pretty well, from what we can tell.
mikeynov,
how was your diet with that? (i.e. how many calories)
Do you think caloric intake around your "BMR" make sense with that kind of training?
My guess is that you'd want to overeat while "on," and eat at or slightly below maintenance while "off" for strategic conditioning.

I only tried it for a cycle or two - if memory serves, I gained 7 or 8 pounds in 2 weeks (mostly water/glycogen, but I looked much larger) and my strength by the end of the two weeks (after cycling from 15s to 5s) was actually great.
 
912 works this way!
12 days every day cluster hst (start with 80% 1rm)
enormous Kcal deficit

9 days SD no Kcalc deficit
 
Doesn't sound like HST to me at all. Sounds more like Escalating Density Training proposed by Charles Staley.
 
Below is a translation that I worked out. It's mostly the original author's wording, but I did some paraphrasing here and there. Anyway, can any of the German trainers look this over and correct any of my mistakes? Especially the exercise selection, some of it seems a bit off.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
912 Progressive Load - The Sledgehammer Method for Dieting

What is progressive load?

Hypertrophy Specific training was developed from a review of scientific research detailing the stimuli and mechanisms for muscle growth. Progressive load is based on physiological principles, which were discovered in the laboratory. These principles were integrated into a method, training the muscle systematically, in order to produce hypertrophy.

The progressive load principles

Mechanical load
progressive load relies on the fact that mechanical load represents the main stimulus for muscle growth, not by exercise-induced hormonal changes, metabolic stress or muscle fatigue.

Chronic stimulus
In order for mechanical load to clearly produce hypertrophy, this stimulus must be used with sufficient frequency . A environment of chronic stimulation is produced, instead of only rare, acute attacks made on the material's structure. The research shows that the period of the adaptation does not persist after a training session longer than 24-48 hours. Therefore the stimulus is repeated at least every second day, in order to create a environment continuously beneficial for hypertrophy.

Progressive Overloading
Over time, the muscle tissue adapts to the mechanical load and becomes resistant to the training signal. This adaptation can take place already in a very short time. As soon as this happens, hypertrophy starts to fall, while neural and metabolic adaptation may continue. In order to steer against this effect, mechanical load, the training weight must be increased in regular intervals.

Strategic Deconditioning
As soon as it is no longer possible to increase the training weight, the muscle tissue's conditioning must be reduced. This procedure is accompanied with a sufficiently long training break, in which the muscle gives its adjustment up to the no longer existing environment attraction. After this strategic training break, the muscle tissue is again stimulated with the mechanical load and can hypertrophy can occur further.

912: Optimizing for Dieting

This progressive load plan is optimized for dieting. This is, however, not for getting cut or for slow regulated dieting (i.e. "steady progress".) 912HST is a sledgehammer method for people who want to lose larger quantities of fat as quickly as possible. Who wants to wait for months for their wash board abs?

912HST is designated after the timetable of its workplan, where a twelve-day training phase is followed by a nine-day strategic deconditioning (SD). The unusually short duration of the training period permits maximum volume and maximum frequency. In only twelve days one can practically train as much as one wants, without burning out. One mantains during the entire training period a high calorie deficit between 500 to 2000kcal, depending upon how quickly one wants to lose. Loading days are not performed. The twelve days are too short to cause an excessively strong effect on metabolic slowdown. Then, during the nine-day SD one eats without calorie deficit, whereby the metabolism can recover again completely and be prepared for the next cycle.

With 912 one begins the cycle somewhat at a hevier than the conventional progressive load. 80% 1RM is the minimum weight. With exercises, which one can implement as negatives, the takeoff weight may even be yet high. One increases up to the schwerstmoegliche weight. Is trained (naturally) each day, whereby one should make at least each third day a resistance increase. The following SD is not sufficient, in order to decondition completely, however it is long enough in order to make the above 80% load again effective.

How does it work?

Effective resistance training causes high energy consumption more than during the exercise. In addition, the muscle regeneration requires a significant energy supply. One induces post-exercise energy consumption, or EPOC (excess post office exercise oxygen consumption.) There is also energy required for repairing muscle tissue, glycogen synthesis and creatine phosphate's high-energy needs and. The post exercise trainings energy consumption depends particularly on the training weight. The higher the resistance, the higher the following EPOC. With a training such as 912HST, post exercise can burn calories of at least 100% of that burned during the training session. That means: a 80kg athlete with a metabolic burn rate of approx. 1800kcal burns another 1800kcal per 912HST session. Moreover, the energy consumption of the training is actually not yet considered. Thus, heavy training burns a lot of energy, which tears into the diet and burns bodyfat.

To the training-induced energy consumption a further factor is added. Heavy, eccentric training according to the progressive load principles, with high volume and high frequency, provides not only maximum energy consumption, but also the complete repair of the muscle mass or with smaller caloric deficits even muscle growth. With 912HST one can gain its lean mass independently of the caloric deficit! The protein for the regeneration and for possible muscle growth gets itself the body from other materials, if it is not sufficiently supplied with the food. A diet as a short as a twelve-day phase would not be sufficient with appropriate training to lose muscle tissue.

Cluster training

912 benefits from a system of fatigue management called cluster training. Cluster training is simply and easily splitting up the training sets into individual, smaller fragments. The reason behind it is to avoid muscular exhaustion, in order to more easily mantain high training volume and high frequency. An example for clarity: One plans a total volume of 10 repetitions per session with a certain exercise. Instead of implementing these 10 reps into one set, which would be very fatiguing, one divides it as desired up, e.g. on 5+5, or 3+3+3+1, with short rests between them. Its total fatigue does not play a role. It does not matter how one divides it, only the total number of repetitions.

The training plan

In order to guarantee maximum success, 912HST prefers exercises that are suitable for heavy, eccentric repetitions and permit as high a stretch of the contracting muscle as possible. These two criteria are the most imporant factors in hypertrophy. Strong stretch during simultaneous mechanical load leads to microtrauma, whose regeneration is very demanding in calories, which us for our dieters is naturally very welcome.

It is important to train each muscle directly and neglect nothing. Neglected muscles are not protected against atrophy. The exercise are:

Squat
For Gluteus and Hamstrings (thigh back) the squat is the perfect exercise. The more deeply one squats, the more stretched these musces are. quats are not a priority exercise for quads!

Leg extension
For this reason we give still little more stress to the Quads, by working them over again with the leg extension.

Calf raise
In no case may one neglect the calves. Standing calf raise is more suitable than the sitting variant, in order to stretch the target muscle.

Negative Chins
Closegrip chins with the supinated or the V-shaped grip possess excellent ability to stretch the Lat. In addition one can use weights beyond the 1RM, if one facilitates the concentric movement phase employing legs. One pays attention to achieve after each repetition a good eccentric cadence. Subsequently, one can add one or two sets of loaded streches to the failure with the retaining strength with the same weight.

Rows
Since chins stress rather the Lat and less muscles of the upper back, e.g. the lower portion of the trapezoid muscle, 912HST completes back training with prevented rudders, an exercise, which is important for the structure of the back. If necessary one can implement it also at a suitable machine. A particularly good in the assortment has hammer Strength.

Dips
Dips permit heavy eccentric repetitions when strong stretch to chest muscles and are therefore the preferential basic exercise for chest and Trizeps. As is the case for the Klimmzuegen one should go also here as deeply as possible.

Shrugs
One preferably uses shrugs with particularly high weight, which corresponds in approximately, which one would normally cross-lift. It since-lifts at the cable assembly (in such a way adjusted that the cable rauskommt on handhigh) puts most tension on the lower portion of the movement and is suitable therefore rather as since lifting with Kurzhanteln.

Biceps and Triceps
If one still has the energy, one can add another drop or strip set of any biceps and tricep movement.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Only twelve days train? Isn't that somewhat too short?

A: No! A twelve-day cycle appears somewhat short in the comparison to the conventional, progressive load, but one must regard the relationship from WO days to SD plus non-WO days. A normal cycle, with which each second day one trains and which a 14 SD follows, has a ratio from 21 training days to (21 non-WO days + 14 days SD = 35 inactive days. That results in a training of 0.6. 912HST has a ratio of12 training days to 9 SD days = 12:9 and has thus a quotient of 1.3. Mathematically, 912HST contains more than twice as much training per time unit in the comparison to the classical progressive load.

Q: Right then. But isn't the SD much too short, to completely decondition ? One trains on 912 with very heavy weights, which conditions the muscle tissue very strongly.

A: The nine-day SD is enough, in order to respond again to weights of approx. 80%. A complete Decondition is not necessary, since we begin with 912 anyway relatively heavily.

Q: But why only twelve days training? One could begin with less difficulty and lift through six weeks.

A: In order to really drive the energy usage into astronomical heights and therefore accelerate Dieting strongly, we must put on enormously high volume with 912HST with very high frequency. That leads on a long-term basis to burning out and over training symptoms. The short cycle permits us to train almost as much as desired. In only twelve days one does not burn out. The following SD permits complete regeneration and makes thus a further high-volume training period possible.

Q: May I add Cardio and/or interval training, in order to accelerate the thing still another little?

A: Naturally, everything is permitted. One considers however that Cardio and interval training in comparison to heavy weight training produces only a very small transformation of energy. The basis of the training must remain heavy training.

Q: No loading days? I thought, those would be so important, in order to hold the metabolism above.

A: Those also important, however 912HST has only a relatively short Diet phase. After the twelve days, the metabolism cannot drop so far that the dieting becomes ineffective. That is alone already prevented by training. The following SD is, as it were, a replacement for Refeeds, since during rest, one eats and the metabolism is once again set in motion.

Q: Which role does nutrition play? How am I to eat?

A: With the nutrition, attention is only actually to the calorie deficit. Whether one is now a follower of the Ketogenic Diet or trusts in good old low fat, does not make a difference. I recommend however to consume carbohydrates at least after training in order to fill up the glycogen stores at least partly again. That is more beneficial for the achievement in training than completely carbhohydrate nutrition. Naturally, attention must be moreover paid to protein, a high protein supply of approx. 2g. per kilogram body weight. But it does not necessary mean a bodybuilding diet.

Q: You said the body could get itself the protein for growth and regeneration from other material. What do you mean by it?

A: If the muscle is forced to grow with insufficient protein and energy input by an enormously strong growth signal (as with 912) to, then it can gain protein for skin, hair, fingernails, organs, bone, the immune system etc., necessary for it. The necessary energy comes naturally from the fatty tissue. In addition the body can use amino acids to a certain degree; (bears in hibernation completely use amino acids completely and lose no lean mass - unfortunately humans cannot do this). That means that the body can grow and regenerate at short notice independently of the nutrition. This is a further advantage of the short train/rest period of 912. On a long-term basis, thus over months and years, one naturally requires sufficient nutrition.
 
In the "the training plan" section:
Rows:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]prevented rudders
= Bent over rows
Dips:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Klimmzuegen
=Chins / pullups
Shrugs
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]cross-lift
=Deadlift
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It since-lifts at the cable assembly (in such a way adjusted that the cable rauskommt on handhigh)
uuuh, that's not easy, but I would say it this way:
Lateral raise performed at a cable machine
(adjust cable height at hand level)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Kurzhanteln
=dumbbell
Hope I didn't make it worse  
crazy.gif

 
BTW Jules,
what do you think of "912"??
Any recommendations for diet (carb/protein/fat ratio, .....)
if you are trying to cut seriously?
Thanks in advance
 
Is 912 only for cutting? If you had a caloric surplus rather than a deficit, could this be a good bulking routine?

thanks
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (SteGro @ June 13 2005,4:26)]In the "the training plan" section:
Rows:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]prevented rudders
= Bent over rows
Dips:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Klimmzuegen
=Chins / pullups
Shrugs
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]cross-lift
=Deadlift
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It since-lifts at the cable assembly (in such a way adjusted that the cable rauskommt on handhigh)
uuuh, that's not easy, but I would say it this way:
Lateral raise performed at a cable machine
(adjust cable height at hand level)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Kurzhanteln
=dumbbell
Hope I didn't make it worse  
crazy.gif

 
Everything properly
worship.gif
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]what do you think of "912"??

It seems like an interesting idea.  Basically, 912 tries to simulate the metabolic and conditioning effect a "untrained" or person (at least somebody from a long layoff) might get when they start training.  *In theory*, I think he's correct in his assumptions that you would see something of a muscle-sparing effect and that the metabolism would rise in response to the very significant mictrotrauma, as well as from the increased frequency.  Just how much that this makes a difference, I don't know.  

I can see two advantages to this scheme.  First, for those of us who hate dieting, this short-term focus would be a very realistic approach.  Second, for somebody who's in the 10-15%, this may be an easier way to cut without doing funky CKD-style manipulations.

As a general fat-loss scheme, though, it would have to burn fat 75% faster over normal cutting in order to be an advantage.  Of course I'm skeptical about that.  
But, if you can see point me to any German URLs with 912 discussion, I'd love to read up on it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Any recommendations for diet (carb/protein/fat ratio, .....)

if you are trying to cut seriously?

Ideally, you would have relatively full glycogen stores before going into the cut cycle.  Other than that, I would emphasize  lean protein (1.5-2g/lbs) and time carb intake with total intake roughly 75-100% of protein after workouts.  I think the caloric deficit will take care most of the loss, though.

BTW, are there any other wacky German variations out there? I know of Cluster HST, 912, and a funky mix of POF and HST. Is there anything else?

cheers,
Jules
 
You should try 912hst! It realy works!
I do it nowadays (since 12.06) and just lost 2cm around my waist !
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Is there anything else?
yes there is 1+2+3 t , but it is worthless!
It is a mixture of dual fator train and Hst !
:confused:
sneaky2.gif

the inventor of 1+2+3t wanted to call it hst2, but the German HST trainees prevented it!
But Cluster HST and 912 HST are very effective variations of Hst !
 
Hello,
in Insider-Circles 912-HST also called 911-HST.
In many german Forums Users of 912-HST and HST-Cluster gets hurt by using this training method. There is to much use of high load and high frequency. The passive structure of a human body cannot handle this and this result in injuries.

m@x already said there’s a HST-derivative called 1-2-3+T. The basic change is the periodisation scheme. You train three times in the week. On Monday you train with 5 Reps, on Wednesday with 15 Reps and on Friday with 10 Reps. For every training day you could use a different training schedule.
This is a very short summary of 123T!!! By far there is much more.

Some Users of 123T report about good results. I know one of them. He use 123T since one year and he is still very pleased.

Here are two german links of 123T :

The Program :
http://mitglied.lycos.de/boahd/contents/1-2-3+T.pdf

The Creator of 123T generate a Online-course, where he wrote something about the basics of 123T. There you find many links in English.
http://mitglied.lycos.de/boahd/php08a/viewtopic.php?t=352

PS: Don’t wonder about my English. I come from Germany and speaking in English I do much to rarely.
 
I am no friend of Cluster Hst (injury danger and too long workouts, Original Hst is much better), but 912 Hst is a very good thing! The problem is that most users work up to their 1Rm (tey start with 80% of 1rm), but if you use your 5rm it is not so dangerous!
 
HST-Cluster and 912-HST are very similar to each other.
That many persons get only hurt with HST-Cluster or 912-HST by using a 1RM load is wrong ! That you can see in many german sport forums. A 5RM is mostly to heavy for many persons, when they using Cluster-HST and 912-HST. That is the reality. I have seen it in some german forums in one german forum I am a moderator !
 
wow i think i'll give 912 a try since i'm now cutting and it's been i think 3 weeks and i just lot 2 pounds!!it's so slow!! i can't wait to bulk again. did i understand correctly that 912HST requires a deficit of 500-2000 cals (obviously depends on the person)?.

i agree. working with 1rm is kind of scary.. i think i'll stick with the 5 rep range.
 
Moving this to General training as it pertains more to other forms of training than HST specifically.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]HST-Cluster and 912-HST are very similar to each other.
That many persons get only hurt with HST-Cluster or 912-HST by using a 1RM load is wrong !

The setup has some similiarities. I can see where both forms of clustering can create sore joints. You start at a fairly heavy load without any tendon/ligament conditioning from 15s or prior training. Also, it seems both forms don't put a lot of stock on metabolic stress techniques, which would indirectly "oil" the joints anyway.
I'd recommend adding 15-rep burn set, and some kind of short cardio anyway. This would actually be a nice setup to do a nutty 10-12x-a-week frequency routine. At the end, you really won't want to do anything else.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]did i understand correctly that 912HST requires a deficit of 500-2000 cals (obviously depends on the person)?

Seems like it, though obviously you don't want to be eating less than 1000 calories or starving yourself under any circumstances.) I would probably eat more or less bulking style for pre/post-WO (emphasizing carbs after exercise), and then make the deficit outside of that. And if a person were willing to try a twice-a-day, everyday scheme, they would probably eat "maintenance" level.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]wow i think i'll give 912 a try since i'm now cutting and it's been i think 3 weeks and i just lot 2 pounds!!

Key thing is to take those 9 days off (while eating maintenance-level) before starting. On this approach, you need the decon so that the full effect kicks in.

Skinnyman, if you give this a shot, please let me know. I'd love to see how it works for ya. :)

cheers,
Jules
 
That is one of the big advatages of 912 you can go under
-1000 kcal because it is such a short time period (exam. just 1200 kcal a day if you need 2800 to keep your weight) .
But be avare of the danger to hurt yourself!
Do the Pumpsets like Vicious recommendet!
 
i think 912 is not recommended for those competing because i don't think 912 doesn't spare too much muscle. well this week i've lost 2 pounds and i've read that losing more than 1.5lbs a week will cost muscle. but it's a really fast way to lose pounds.

question max, can i do cardio during the SD? (i'm not working out my legs anyway).
 
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