Dialing up HST for a cut

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by tdawg_33, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. tdawg_33

    tdawg_33 New Member

    I am about to begin a cut and am going to go back to a standard HST routine. I know myself well enough to know that I won't do any specific cardio on a regular basis. I had a couple of ideas that I wanted throw out there

    1. Condensed Routine followed by full body circuit

    3 sets of 5
    Incline Bench

    10-15 reps
    6-8 assistance exercises done in circuit fashion 2 x through
    Ex. Good mornings, lunges, upright rows, rack chins, Bench dips, elevated pushups etc.

    2.) Standard HST Routine done in superset fashion
    with 15's Mon, 10's Wed, 5's Fri. (just sounds fun)
    Incline Bench / Bent Over Row

    Seated DB Press/ Rack Chins

    Unilateral Squat/ Leg Curl

    Close Grip Bench / Curls


    Has anyone tried either and had success? I am going to reduce calories from maintenance by 100 for 5 weeks and hold at a 500 kcal deficit until I reach 10% bf. Any feedback is appreciated
  2. wwazza

    wwazza New Member

    Nice idea's for a workout.

    However I fail to see how you will incorporate HST principles into them routines.

    The 15's, 10's and 5's in one week sounds interesting but how would you progressively load over the entire cycle? especially if you're not sure when the cycle will end, as your goal is a measure of body composition and not time. Would you just repeat the cycle til you get the desired results?

    I'm interested to know how HST can help on a cut and why, but nowhere can I find information to suggest it has any benefits over other types of training.
  3. tdawg_33

    tdawg_33 New Member

    After reflection I have decided to go with option 2 as I believe it is a better option.

    the 15/10/5 is a HST variant that I read about on the site (can't remember where off hand). It does follow the standard progression thoughout, and I plan on doing a full 8 week cycle the last 2 weeks being at or above 100% of the current RM. Week 1 would be 75% of each max weight, week 2 would be 80% and so on. There are several variants listed, but this one I found to be quite interesting.

    I will simply stick with HST throughout my cut and repeat cyles. I figure 2-3 cycles will be sufficient as it took me 3 to get to my current bodyweight. I am not rushing this cut. If I need to further reduce calories I will do so in the same manner as I metioned before. Too many people get impatient when trying to lose weight and do it too quickly and lose all the gains they had made.

    The reason I am choosing HST is that it simply works for me. My strenght and LBM have gone up more in 3 cycles than in the past 2 years. Strength training should be the cornerstone to any cut IMO. I am only dialing up (supersetting) HST to increase my metabolism for an added calorie burning effect and to increase my conditioning. Cardio is fine for people that enjoy it and have the time, but for me it simply waste of time/energy that I could've put towards weight training. My experience in cutting is limited, but there are many more seasoned HST faithful that have done several bulk/cut cycles that have had tremendous results using HST principles.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2011
  4. wwazza

    wwazza New Member

    That sounds like a good option now I understand how you'll increase the weights.

    Does this way of training have any advantages over the standard 2 week mini cycle set up?

    I have actually seen this method mentioned before, but can't remember if there was any relative science as to why it would be better for a cut.

    I too have had great gains using HST, and don't want to lose them by cutting too aggressively. I did this before and ended up to skinny with no chest, so I want to make sure I've got everything sorted before I start.
  5. tdawg_33

    tdawg_33 New Member

    To my knowledge there are no additional benefits if one were "cutting" to this set up over the vanilla HST. I thought it would be interesting to try this method and see how my body responds to the light to heavy day style progression. The supersetting is just my own "add in". Science has already proven that HST principles are legit and this is just a variation using those principles in a slightly different format. There was solid reasoning behind this setup, but I can't find the article. Should have printed it out :D I will log this program as I go so wish me luck!
  6. wwazza

    wwazza New Member

    I remember reading this variation somewhere too and have a vague feeling that you could improve your goals by following a certain macro split depending on which type of training day you were having.

    Maybe low carbs on the 15's, moderate on the 10's, high on the 5's or something like that.

    I'll try have a dig around to see if I can find it again.

    The only thing that might not be good is the short time it takes to get through the 15's, especially if you're supersetting!

    I'd be tempted to do a bit of bag work after the workout to fill the time, which I believe would be good on a cut anyway.
  7. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    HST for cutting:

    Skip 15s
    No SD - only SD if you are burning out or need a break from the diet, and during SD you must eat at maintenance.
    You should endeavor to do cardio twice a week if possible
    calories = 10-12 x bodyweight in lbs - if you are doing cardio then closer to 12, if not then closer to 10
    protein = as close to 1.5 lbs x lean mass in lbs as possible
    no or few isolations
    3 x a week workouts as in normal HST, but you can draw out the 5s longer if you wish, or after the 5s just restart the 10s.
  8. wobbles

    wobbles New Member

    Option 2 sounds horrible given that you are trying to utilize HST principles. Going one week of
    Monday: 75% 15's
    Wednesday: 75% 10's
    Friday: 75% 5's

    is fine, if your cycle ends in 1 week.

    But week 2 on Monday is going to be 80% 15's
    Thats a major deload from the previous Fridays session of 75% 5's and isnt progressive loading. I realize zig zaging is ok, but this is way to extreme imo.
  9. tdawg_33

    tdawg_33 New Member

    @wwazza - I searched high and low for the article and came up empty. Maybe it was all just a figment of my imagination :) I know there was a rationilization behind the method, but for the life of me I can't remember it.

    @Tontenanz- AHHHH this makes sense. Skipping the 15's is about conserving and hopefully building new muscle during the cut right? I can handle cardio 2 x/wk, Previously I used to do it the old school way cardio 4 to 5 x/wk before first meal. My kcals would be 2300-2700 a day with 300 g of protein. Do you have a preferred ratio on carbs & fat? Workouts no muss no fuss just compounds.

    @ wobbles- yeah the more I thought about it over this weekend and put the weights down for each workout it seemed like one long rollercoaster ride. Doesn't seem practical. Probably gonna file that one into the bad idea column. Go with what works right :D
  10. T-man

    T-man New Member

    This response should be made a sticky!
  11. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Basically, the 15s are not heavy enough to spare lean mass while on a cut. Obviously during a cut it is highly unlikely you will build muscle but the goal is to keep protein synthesis as high as possible to make up for the increase in protein breakdown that comes when you cut back calories. In order to keep protein synthesis higher, you must use heavier loads. I typically don't even do 10s, and just repeat the 5s over and over. Keep in mind that higher volume on a cut does not necessarily mean better retention of lean mass. Sometimes it is best to stick to 2 sets of 5 reps each three times a week to avoid burning out. Since you aren't going to be building muscle anyway, you don't need tons of volume and you don't need to be pushing for new maxes, the goal should be to maintain your strength in all lifts. If you maintain your strength during a cut, you are in good shape.
    Keep in mind that your muscles might temporarily shrink... this is why you want to use strength as your guide stick for how well you are maintaining lean mass. Strength is a function of neural coordination and cross sectional area of your muscle fibers. If you maintain your strength, that means that you most likely maintained most of your muscle mass. Typically once you go back up to maintenance calories, your muscles will "reinflate" themselves and not look as flat as they can sometimes look during a cut.

    Carbs/Fats - I prefer personally to keep carbs lower but it really just depends on how you react to carbs. Myself, if I keep carbs higher during a cut then my blood sugar gets all crazy and I have to eat more frequently. If I keep carbs under 75 grams or so (ideally 50 grams or less) then I can go long periods without eating and not suffer any consequences. So in your case, what I would suggest is:
    300 grams of protein = 1200 calories
    100 grams of carbs = 400 calories
    which leaves you appx 120 grams of fats remaining, which I would try to get primarily from tag along fats with your proteins, and then some good fats like olive oils, etc. 120 grams of fats might seem like a lot, but once you fill in the foods, it shouldn't be too hard. Keep in mind that including dairy - as long as you can tolerate dairy - will aid in a cut. Calcium is a pretty important micronutrient that is often overlooked. It aids in fat loss and is important in the process of building muscle, so it' s a good addition to a diet. Cottage cheese is a great diet food.

    One thing to keep in mind is that if you keep protein right up around 300 grams, you could probably keep the calories at the lower end of the range, meaning 2300, which would result in only needing around 75 grams of fat per day, which might be easier for you when figuring out your diet.

    Cardio... yes, first thing in the morning prior to eating is slightly more ideal than doing it other times of the day. But realistically what is important is that you can actually do it, so just fit it into your schedule where you can. However, once you get leaner (under 10%) then it might be a good idea to switch over to Lyle's Stubborn Fat Protocol which would indeed require you to do it first thing in the morning.
  12. tdawg_33

    tdawg_33 New Member

    tot- Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed outline. Now 10% is just a few months down the road. I agree with T-man should be a sticky for sure. doesn't get any clearer than this!
  13. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Good luck with the cut, the main struggle other than hunger pains is not getting discouraged as you look in the mirror and see yourself shrinking. There is a period during the cut where you aren't yet lean enough to be looking better, but you are losing enough fat that you look smaller and it can be discouraging because sometimes some of us will see it as 'oh no, I'm losing all my muscle' and then either quit dieting or worse, start bulking up again when you haven't even finished cutting yet. So just stick with it. Really once you get under 10% is when you start to see the most dramatic changes on a daily or weekly basis.
    Jdtres1 likes this.
  14. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    If you really start to get hungry, try stuffing yourself with green beans and broccoli. Quite filling, yet very low carbs and cals.
  15. tdawg_33

    tdawg_33 New Member

    Thanks for the encouragement and advice.Hunger pangs are definitely a challenge. I try to just keep myself busy so I don't think about it :) I do remember I felt small last time after my cut, but I was much leaner at the start then. This time I will dropping significantly more weight so we will see, but I'm ready to see some definition again.
  16. HST123

    HST123 Member

    Thought I would add my question onto this thread instead of starting another one,

    What is the point of going back to the beginning of the 10's/5's without SD(i.e lowering the weight), that seems to go against the principles of HST? does the lower weight give your body a bit of time to recover? or does the progressive load principle still apply even if you have lifted your 5RM and then lower the weights and increment up to your 5RM again?

    Obviously you would probably burnout if you kept lifting your 5RM 3 times a week but I would of thought going back to 10's/start of 5's would be a bit too light to provide adequate muscle stimulus once you had reached your 5RM?
  17. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    The point of going back to the beginning is to prevent you from burning out. You are on a cut, so you are not going to grow, so repeated bout effect is less of a concern. What we are seeking in this case, rather than keeping ahead of RBE, is to simply induce enough strain that we can prevent excessive muscle loss during a cut. It's more of a deload rather than an SD.
  18. HST123

    HST123 Member

    Right, thanks Totentanz
  19. T-man

    T-man New Member

    OK, long story short. I've been on a cut and found that my calories were too low (but 180-210g protein daily), which affected my strength to the point that I was unable to up the weight on a number of lifts my last two workouts. Rather than quit the session in disgust, I maintained the weight (and increased where I was able) from my previous session and did drops for my working set. I've since upped the calories and will see if I can progress the weights from the last session. I've finally gotten it into my head that scale weight doesn't matter as much as what I see in the mirror. Is my thinking correct?
  20. ExCompetitor

    ExCompetitor New Member

    Correct,go by the mirror and fat loss percentage.There are too many variables that will affect your day to day weight changes on a scale.

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