Fat Instead of Muscle when Trying to Gain Mass

[CantBulk]

Several years ago, I lost A LOT of weight. Unfortunately, quite a bit of that weight was in muscle. I still had a bit of a belly, but my face looked really sunken and my arms and chest had completely deflated. I decided to go in another direction and try to replace fat with muscle mass.

For the past  two years, I've tried every work out plan known to man (I just started HST) and have tried to eat right, but I just can't seem to get the combination of diet and weight training to do what I need; gain mass without a lot of extra fat.

I understand you can't bulk up and drop fat at the same time.  I also understand that to gain mass, you have to take in more calories than you burn. However, it seems like every extra calorie I take in goes straight to fat and not muscle.

Trying to bulk up, I've been taking in about 2400-2500 calories per day at 20% fat, 40% protein and 40% carbs. I get 200+ grams of protein per day.

Currently, I'm 5' 10" and 190 pounds. (38 years old if that makes a difference) To maintain my weight, it takes about 1800-2000 calories. As soon as I go slightly above this range, I start gaining inches around the waist. However, I've also read that 2000 calories is barely enough to support muscle growth?

I'm stumped and very frustrated after two years of trying to figure this all out on my own. I hope someone can offer some advice.

 

[Rory]

Such is the problem for many males. You're not alone in this regard. For males, problem areas include the midsection and lower back whereas females tend to hold more fat in the hips and thighs.

One of the ways that you might be able to bulk a bit cleaner is cycle your carbs throughout the week. There are a variety of ways that you can do this, from more mild versions to more extreme. Cycling carbs can contribute to increased nutrient partitioning so that more of the food/macro's you eat go where you want them to instead of turning to fat. If you want to give it a try, I can provide you with some quick examples of what has worked for me in the past.

Some have also had good success with eating pro/fat in some meals throughout the day and pro/carb only at other times. So, you never combine p/c/f in any meal. Most of the carb/pro meals are consumed around your workout. There is research out there to suggest that this doesn't make whole lot of difference but I wanted to give you another option.

It would be helpful if you could simply provide a "sample days" diet and then I and others here might be able to give you more specific info. if you feel comfortable doing that.

Also, I may have missed it elsewhere but how much cardio are you currently doing?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

In 2001 I weighed 230 Lbs. I am 5'9", it was all fat, well not all naturally, anyway I got down to 149 lbs. took about a year and a half. Lost lots of fat but also lots of muscle. I have been working out now for 2+ years and I have finally broke the 164 Lb mark. Naturally when you lose large amounts of fat there is residual loose skin, some of it tightened up, a lot hasn't. Especially right below belly button. Anyway what I found out is you can still add muscle by eating at maintenance, albeit slower it still happens. Unless your BF % is low, under 15 to 20% I wouldn't try bulking by eating above maintenace, stick to maintenance and give it some time. It will work out in the end.

Even though losing body fat is predominantly a matter of calories in versus out, you might want to stick to very clean carbs. What I have noticed in myself and others is that restricting carbs too bad sets you up for a fat gain rebound when you start eating carbs again. If you simply can't resist the carbs then up the cardio to compensate.

The 2000 Kcals question is misleading at your age, mine also I'm 40, we don't need as many calories to maintain, mine is about 1800 depending on my activity. If you have a manual labor job then it would be higher but I work in a office at a desk for the most part. The calories you need will change over time based on how muscle you accrue.

Lastly have you had any blood work done to check for thyroid, test and free test levels. If these are off it can impact your ability to gain and loose weight also, along with adding muscle.

If you have any questions ask away.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Oh and another thought, I don't know how anal you are about logging your food intake but it is imperative that you do so. Use Fitday or any other program, disregard the BMR calculator as it's a little wack, to track everything you eat with macro content. The reason for this 1. It keeps you thinking about clean eating. 2. It let's you know exactly where you stand 3. It helps, in time, to recognize portions and portion control. Believe me it's true, I can pretty much scoop exactly one or even one half cup of rice on plate every time. (I'm anal enough to test myself periodically

).

Lastly at 190 Lbs. you might be still carrying a bit of fat around, I would concentrate on getting a lower BF first. Unless of course you have a large bone structure. No offense

Here are some pics

 

[Rory]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Mar. 12 2005,3:40)]Even though losing body fat is predominantly a matter of calories in versus out, you might want to stick to very clean carbs. What I have noticed in myself and others is that restricting carbs too bad sets you up for a fat gain rebound when you start eating carbs again. If you simply can't resist the carbs then up the cardio to compensate.

Agreed...my main sources of carbs come from old fashioned oats, brown rice, sweet potatoes, whole wheat pasta, fruit, and veggies.
One way to cycle carbs so that you're not feeling "carb depleted", too restricted on carbs and to keep cravings at bay is something like this.
Day 1: 1.5 g/lb.
Day 2: 1g/lb.
Day 3: .5/lb.
Then repeat cycle.  Or you can restrict carbs slightly more on the days you do not train.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

The 1st was Nov of 2000
This is Dec of 03
The last is 2 weeks ago

 

[imported_dkm1987]

about 2 weeks ago @ 163/4 Lbs

 

[BoSox]

wow dan.  It's been a while since we've seen some new pictures and it looks like you got a LOT bigger.  Granted, it's not a great angle (the most recent pic) but from what I can tell, you look a lot larger than that second pic, which I've seen several times.  Nice work.

I assume you've posted your most current routine recently, so assuming its easier than re-typing it, could you point me the right direction? I know you're a higher frequency advocate and thats what I want to explore.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Yeah a little, unfortunatley my wife won't take pics of me, keeps saying something about narcissism, oh well, but yes the 03 pic was @ 152-4lbs so ten pounds adds up I guess.

Thanks

I guess my point is to cantbulk, yes you can add with minimal fat gain, if you are willing to wait for it and follow HST of course .

SO bosox where's the pics of you no I'm not Sonny and wanna see a young man barely clothed, but would like see the gains you've made

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (BoSox @ Mar. 12 2005,4:02)]I assume you've posted your most current routine recently, so assuming its easier than re-typing it, could you point me the right direction?  I know you're a higher frequency advocate and thats what I want to explore.

Since I can't put my finger on it.

Here it is in a nutshell. I cluster 20 reps, started at 25 but it kicked me in my a$$ so I had to drop to 20. I started with my 12RM instead of sub 15. And as usual I go 4X week and I extend the cycle til I can't get any more results out of it.

Tue and Thur
Safety Squat w/ Calf Raise (one movement)
Narrow Suppinated Pull Downs, Pull Ups when I hit my Bodyweight alternated with Wide Grip Pull Downs (Tue/Thur)
Wide Grip Rows to Mid Sternum alternated with Narrow Grip to Navel (Tue/Thur)
Leg Curls alternated with Good Mornings (Tue/Thur)
Weighted Dips alternating with Incline Bench (Tue/Thur)
Miltary Press alternating w/Arnold Press (Tue/Thur)
BB Curl alternating with Incline DB CUrl (Tue/Thur)
Cheating Heavy Tri Pressdown alternating with DB Tri Ext (Tue/Thur)
The Tues and Thurs are kept breif but effective because I can't always get home at a reasonable hour but I hate missing workouts and my wife likes to sit down to dinner together (AHHHHH) so I'm kinda rushed.

Sat & Sun
AM PM Split with above Plus
Shoulder Lateral
Incline DB Press
Flat Fly
Upright Row
Shrugs

Since I have more time on the weekends I can pile it on but I split it into AM and PM. I have upped my Calories to 2300 on workouts days and then back to about 1.8 to 2K on non. Mostly it's just the additional pre and post workout shake.

 

[imported_ectoman]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Mar. 12 2005,3:40)]Anyway what I found out is you can still add muscle by eating at maintenance, albeit slower it still happens. Unless your BF % is low, under 15 to 20% I wouldn't try bulking by eating above maintenace, stick to maintenance and give it some time. It will work out in the end.

Bryan said the same thing in another thread, and now you repeat it. My mind is totally blown whenever I hear this.

How can you make something out of nothing? Please guys, no one has explained how this is possible with a neutral energy balance. On the surface this seems to violate a few natural laws.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

The partitioning effect of working out throws the predominance of ingested cals towards anabolism, the excess adipose tissue is used for energy needs beyond growth, normal daily activities. Hence a lower need for increasing the energy intake. So you aren't making something out of nothing you are just redirecting what and how it's used, of course within modest means as it's hard for our body to do anything beyond what evolution has intended.

 

[skinnyman]

wow maintain at 2000 cals? now i feel abnormal...
it takes me 2500 cals just to maintain! and 2900 just to gain weight! and i'm only 152 lbs!!

am i normal!?

 

[Totentanz]

Skinnyman, I think it has something to do with being young

I actually have a similar problem. I had to start eating at least 3500 a day to even gain weight at all. Even at that level, the gains are still kind of slow.

I wonder what it would have been like if I had started this six years ago, when I was still a teenager.

 

[CantBulk]

Quote[/b] (Rory @ Mar. 12 2005,1:30)]It would be helpful if you could simply provide a "sample days" diet and then I and others here might be able to give you more specific info. if you feel comfortable doing that.    
Also, I may have missed it elsewhere but how much cardio are you currently doing?

I couldn't find a simple way to export my foods from Fitday, so here's a simple list. I haven't included the nutritional info for the individual foods; just the final breakdown. This is a relatively heavy day. Also, I don't "journal" plain vegetables, salads (dressings do go in), etc. They're in my diet too. I do keep track of fruit because of the high carb counts.

Regarding cardio, I do about three 30-minute sessions on an elliptical traininer using the interval program at a level of about 15 out of 25.

Breakfast
========
Bagel, multigrain
Sausage, Breakfast - Morningstar Farms
Cheese, processed, American or Cheddar type, nonfat or fat free
Milk, cow's, fluid, skim or nonfat, 0.5% or less butterfat

Mid-morning
===========
Zone Perfect Fudge Graham

Lunch
=======
Lean Cuisine - Rigatoni w/ Meatballs

Pre-workout
==========
Tuna, canned, water pack
Bread, pita

During workout
============
VitaminWater

Post workout
============
Protein Powder - Pro Rated
EAS Phosphagen HP

Dinner
=======
Macaroni, cooked, fat not added in cooking
Aidell Sundried Tomato Sausage, low-fat
Bread, Italian, Grecian, Armenian

Snack
=====
Milk, cow's, fluid, skim or nonfat, 0.5% or less butterfat
Oreo Thin Crisps

Totals
Cals: 2634 Fat: 46g(16%) | carb:345g (51%)| Prot: 206g (32%)

 

[imported_devient]

another important factor..

what do you do for a living???

51% carbs is pretty high and theyre not particulaly low GI sources either

steer clear of all processed food

no offence

but at 38 your testosterone levels wont be at their max
you could try tribulas vulgar, or 6 oxo to boost test and lower estrogen levels

 

[Pauly]

Apart from my 6 workouts a week I sit on my @$$ all day. My bulk has stalled at 196, so Im now maintaining on 3400 cals a day.

I know I should eat more to get things moving again, but Im starting a summer cut in a few weeks so Im quite happy just maintaining for now. Im 12% now, so I should hopefully cut up quickly when I start UD2 with a 3400 maintenance level!

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Totentanz @ Mar. 12 2005,8:46)]Skinnyman, I think it has something to do with being young  

That and I sit at a desk all day. Plus I have low test levels so it's easy for me to gain fat but harder to gain muscle.

Quote[/b] (devient (Posted on Mar. 13 2005 @ 5:35))]
but at 38 your testosterone levels wont be at their max
you could try tribulas vulgar, or 6 oxo to boost test and lower estrogen levels

Agreed but have it checked, have them check for total and free test also thyroid.

Back to cantbulk. There are definately a lot of processed carbs there.

Pauly wasn't it you who wrote a great diet for our bud Volatile, or am I confused?

Anyway my point is cantbulk needs to clean up the processed foods, get your carbs from other sources beside graham crackers and pasta. Try more Brocolli, cauliflower, whole oats, lots of green leafy veggies (low energy density but filling), a variety of other veggy sources (rainbow it, a different colored veg every meal), and enjoy the fruits with limits, add some berries and nuts also. Stear clear the processed sausage (high saturated fat) eat more tuna and egg whites or whole eggs even, chicken breast, lean cuts of beef (choice or select sirloin is a good choice).

 

[Rory]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Mar. 13 2005,8:53)]Anyway my point is cantbulk needs to clean up the processed foods, get your carbs from other sources beside graham crackers and pasta. Try more Brocolli, cauliflower, whole oats, lots of green leafy veggies (low energy density but filling), a variety of other veggy sources (rainbow it, a different colored veg every meal), and enjoy the fruits with limits, add some berries and nuts also. Stear clear the processed sausage (high saturated fat) eat more tuna and egg whites or whole eggs even, chicken breast, lean cuts of beef (choice or select sirloin is a good choice).

This was my first impression also of your diet, cantbulk. I try to keep it simple. Lots of people ask what I eat and I've come up with a short and sweet answer. If if doesn't come from an animal, the ground, or a tree, I don't eat it. I would definitely stay away from packaged/processed foods as much as possible.

 

[VIPER]

Quote[/b] (Pauly @ Mar. 13 2005,5:11)]so I should hopefully cut up quickly when I start UD2 with a 3400 maintenance level!

Hey Pauly, do you find you lost a lot of strength when using UD2 on certain exercises?

When I did the UD2 for 7 weeks I lost 15-20 on bench. Most of the other muscle groups didn't loose much strength though.