Frequency

C

cheeto-man

New Member
I am confused I think. is it better to do 2 sets per body part per workout on a MWF schedule (e.g. 2 sets squat) or increase frequency and do 1 set per body part per workout MTWTFS?

what i have been doing is the 6 day version with a twist. in keeping with some of the posts, instead of doing 2 set of an exercise (2 squats) i do 1 set of 2 different exercises (1 squat, 1 romanian deadlift) and have split them between 2 days. so i would squat 1 set MWF and do 1 set RD TTS. is increased frequency a benefit?
 
thanks for responding. i've been hoping someone would have something to say.

i do like the 6 days/week. the workouts are short - about 20 min. which is helpful for busy people. i have also had more success this way than the "conventional" hst. i have tried hst for a while (a couple years) and never seemed to have much success. i chalked my failures up to diet, routine, frame of mind.  but since i have been doing 6 days i have been getting stronger. (bigger seems hard to measure in the short term although i have gained about 10 lbs in the past month)

another issue i seem to have is that i have better workouts during 15's than 5's. in fact i seem to lose strength thru the course of a cycle. 15's start out ok then 10's then i stink it up in 5's. by the time i start a new cycle my new 15's are lower than my old 15's!

what i have done is changed the rep range to 15, 11, 7 just to keep a little higher reps. seems to work better for me but i always wonder. everyone else seems to have alot of progress in the 5's and many seem to skip 15's altogether (or do then merely to "prep thier joint" for higher weights) but for me the 15's almost seem to be the best for progress. anyone else have similar findings?

i love hst esp the concepts behind it but have always felt that i'm doing something wrong. i like the incresed frequency and higher rep scheme that i am now doing esp for legs where i have a really hard time in the lower rep range.  

but i wonder still if i have lost the way as i compare myself to what others do.

any other input on frequency?
 
Personally if If I can get it done in 3 days a week I would....but thats me. I have tried training 6 days a week and I liked it, however it was not practical with everyday life. If I had a home gym maybe.

However in my expierence 3 days a week routine allows you to bulk easier b/c you dont require as many calories and 6 days a week makes it easier to cut....so for cutting routine 6 days a week is great...and for bulk routine it will work great too....you just have to eat, eat, and eat some more.
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How often do old timers train a muscle group, and/or visit the gym? Several individuals, including Lyle MacDonald, Borge "Blade" Fagerli (although he varies the frequency), Tommy Jeffers (Sporto) have made it clear to themselves that less than 3 times a week is optimal. Even Bryan Haycock has recently said that recent research has shown 2/wk to be no worse than 3/wk. What's your take on this? How often do you train a MG, and how often do you go to the gym when doing 5RM's? How many sets do you do each round? If you drop the frequency, do you increase the volume at the same time? I assume load (weight) stays the same.
 
If training only twice a week is no worse than three times a week, then what's the real point of HST? I mean one of the key points (and key 'principles' of HST) Bryan makes on his site is that training more frequently keeps certain chemicals/hormones elevated in such a way as to enhance muscle synthesis.
 
Well, I guess it all boils down to "optimal" being anywhere between 2 and 3 times a week, as opposed to the "classical" split of 1 bodypart a week.
 
1. Infinitely old necro'ing of this thread

2. Don't get bogged down in a 'per week' mindset. I'm fairly certain that our bodies don't pay much attention to which day it is.

3. There are significant benefits to training more than twice a week that aren't hypertrophy-centric

4. Don't micro-manage every single aspect of a cycle. It can't be done, and over-thinking and over-analysing the vast amounts of data available will drive oneself crazy. 3x a week has worked for millions of people, HST or not. 2x, 4x and 5-6x likewise has been successful.
 
AlexAustralia said:
3. There are significant benefits to training more than twice a week that aren't hypertrophy-centric
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Agreed. Strength is probably among those, as strength gains is what some people usually notice first when switching to HST.

4. Don't micro-manage every single aspect of a cycle. It can't be done, and over-thinking and over-analysing the vast amounts of data available will drive oneself crazy. 3x a week has worked for millions of people, HST or not. 2x, 4x and 5-6x likewise has been successful.
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Even 1 time a week has :) HIT. So it seems they can all be done.
 
OzWoden said:
If training only twice a week is no worse than three times a week, then what's the real point of HST? I mean one of the key points (and key 'principles' of HST) Bryan makes on his site is that training more frequently keeps certain chemicals/hormones elevated in such a way as to enhance muscle synthesis.
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Nope.

HST does not say "you must lift three times a week" - common newbie mistake. All HST says is that chronic stimuli is better than acute, meaning you must train a muscle group frequently.
 
Totentanz said:
HST does not say "you must lift three times a week" - common newbie mistake. All HST says is that chronic stimuli is better than acute, meaning you must train a muscle group frequently.
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I beg to disagree. The HST FAQ Book (collected from forum posts and mag interviews) specifically mentions 3 times a week, or 48-hour frequency in many places.
In summary, to apply the principles of hypertrophy just explained, you're going to:
• Train each body part every 48 hours, or basically three times per week.
• Increase the weight each and every workout.
• Decrease the reps every two weeks.
• Decondition the muscle before you do it all over again.
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The reason HST calls for more frequent training is because the acute anabolic effects of
training, such as increased protein synthesis, muscle-specific IGF-1 expression, and other
factors involved in modulation of short term protein synthesis, only last for 36-48 hours. There
is also mounting evidence of a "summation" effect by exercising while levels of these signals
and responses are elevated, as should be expected.
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Although I do understand that it allows for e.g. Friday-Monday delay, which is 72 hours. So one may read that rule as "closest to 48 hours".
 
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HST_Rihad said:
I beg to disagree. The HST FAQ Book (collected from forum posts and mag interviews) specifically mentions 3 times a week, or 48-hour frequency in many places.



Although I do understand that it allows for e.g. Friday-Monday delay, which is 72 hours. So one may read that rule as "closest to 48 hours".
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HST certainly does not impose 'must'. It imposes frequency. 3x is espoused in the ebooks because the ebooks were compiled from information and experiences of those who did train at 3x per week.

I would advocate that the 36-48hr window is a guideline, albeit a highly accurate one. In addition, the focus ought to be removed from 'per week', that's merely a mental construction. For myself, I train every other day. MWFSuTuThSa-MWF... etc. It's proving highly effective, but I have also trained using 3x, 4x, 5-6x and 10-12x frequencies.

For the purposes of HST doctrine, 3x is a simple and easy mark to point to. It isn't however a set-in-stone requirement that, if not met, would invalidate the rest of the principles.


EDIT: I definitely advocate a minimum frequency of 3x per week if possible. My gut instinct is that people who don't gain on 3x + but do on 2x are simply not eating enough.

My 10-12x frequency used to look roughly like this:

AM:
Dips 2x
Chins 2x
Leg Press 2x
Shoulder Press 1x
Shrugs 1x

PM:
Incline 1x
Rows 1x
Leg Press 1x
Shoulder Press 1x
Shrugs 1x


And then invert the workouts each day so I'm doing 2x of Dips-Chins on M, then Incline-Rows on Tu etc etc.

I put on a reasonable amount of mass, but most notably when I adjusted diet a small amount I simply shed fat like nothing on Earth (being 21-23yrs old is a natural benefit to this sort of training as well, but I'm absolutely certain I could do it again at almost 29).

If one doesn't eat enough, they won't gain, and higher frequency raises your maintenance levels to accommodate for the extra exertion, let alone for gaining
 
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HST_Rihad said:
I beg to disagree. The HST FAQ Book (collected from forum posts and mag interviews) specifically mentions 3 times a week, or 48-hour frequency in many places.



Although I do understand that it allows for e.g. Friday-Monday delay, which is 72 hours. So one may read that rule as "closest to 48 hours".
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Did you notice the line that you are focusing so much on?

"• Train each body part every 48 hours, or basically three times per week."

Basically three times per week.

Basically.

Not exactly. Basically.

Get it?

Being a total rules nazi about a flexible system like HST is only going to screw you over in the long run. There is tons of wiggle room and it is glaringly obvious to anyone who reads all of Bryan's writings with an open mind instead of a "DO AS WRITTEN OR YOU MUST DIE!!!" mentality.
 
Totentanz said:
Did you notice the line that you are focusing so much on?

"• Train each body part every 48 hours, or basically three times per week."

Basically three times per week.
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Well, basically three times per week b/c it's not exactly every 48 hours, but I get your point. I will some time go down to 2/wk when my 5RM is heavy enough.
 
I have found that twice per week for me works best, especially being older. My current schedule has me doing:

Chest and Legs M,TH
Shoulders and Triceps T, F
Back and Biceps W, Sat
Day Off Sun

I do between 4 and 7 sets per bodypart per workout depending on the muscle size. For example, I do 7 sets for back but only 4 for biceps. I also usually split the workouts daily to keep myself fresh by doing back in the morning and biceps in the late afternoon.

Since I am retired and have a nice home gym, this is quite feasible for me. When I was working, I would do a 3 day split over M,T,W and a full body abbreviated workout on Friday.

However, when I was first starting out, I was young and could handle full body workouts 3 times per week.

When doing multiples of body parts per week, remember to not over do it. You should not be too exhausted and feel like puking after doing, for example, legs. You should still have enough gas in your tank to do perhaps 3 more sets when you stop. Otherwise you may run into the dreaded "over training syndrome" which is easy to fall into. Don't model your workouts after the pros or the gear heads in your gym. Get to know your body and your limits and results will come. Less is definitely better than too much!
 
Going along with my other post... notice how O&G is doing "twice a week" but is actually lifting six days a week?

So... your supposition that you could only enter the gym twice a week and grow just fine isn't really supported by examples like what O&G is doing. Yes, he is hitting each muscle group twice a week, but he's lifting six days a week, experiencing raised protein synthesis pretty much all week long. Week long growth is much different than growing 3 or maybe 4 days maximum out of the week.

You also have to realize the difference between people early on in their lifting career and those who are veteran lifters. Obviously someone who is early on has more growth potential and thus will need slightly different stimuli than someone who is older and has been training longer who is primarily training to maintain and possibly eek out some more gains in the process.

To quote Bryan:

2) Acute vs. Chronic Stimuli
In order for the loading to result in significant hypertrophy, the stimulus must be applied with sufficient frequency to create a new "environment", as opposed to seemingly random and acute assaults on the mechanical integrity of the tissue. The downside of taking a week of rest every time you load a muscle is that many of the acute responses to training like increased protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF-1 levels, and mRNA levels all return to normal in about 36 hours. So, you spend 2 days growing and half a week in a semi-anticatabolic state returning to normal (some people call this recovery), when research shows us that recovery can take place unabated even if a the muscle is loaded again in 48 hours. So true anabolism from loading only lasts 2 days at best once the load is removed. The rest of the time you are simply balancing nitrogen retention without adding to it.
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Further, you may want to read his article on frequency as it cites sources:

Planning Your Training Frequency: Timing is Everything
 
Totentanz said:
Going along with my other post... notice how O&G is doing "twice a week" but is actually lifting six days a week?
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Yeah, I kind of realize that training a MG twice a week has nothing to do how often you go to gym to train other MGs, in case you decide to split your body into workouts.

So... your supposition that you could only enter the gym twice a week and grow just fine isn't really supported by examples like what O&G is doing. Yes, he is hitting each muscle group twice a week, but he's lifting six days a week, experiencing raised protein synthesis pretty much all week long.
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That's an interesting idea. I would otherwise think of increased protein synthesis as being a "local" phenomenon in the muscle that's recently experienced stress, not one of a "global" nature on the whole body.

Planning Your Training Frequency: Timing is Everything
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I've read that, but thanks!
 
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