Further Observations On Bulking And Cutting...

Discussion in 'General Training' started by wungun, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. wungun

    wungun Member

    A few things...
    So, I've been dialing down the calories all this year...
    The last time I SD 'ed was last year, I think.... Been working in the 8 to 12 rep range all this year. Steady weight except it I feel a strain then I'll reduce weight and climb back up again in subsequent workouts.
    Simplified exercises somewhat from before.... Main workout is every other day now, not everyday with upper/lower split. Just compound lifts. Added some cardio every other off day and single joint, high rep work on the other off days (bi's and tri's and shoulders).

    Now, without bulking in the typical sense (except last year where I tried, got sick a couple of times, workouts suffered and got 20lbs fat), I have most definitely put on a good amount of muscle!
    I easily look preworkout BIGGER than I did post workout-pump all over from 6 months ago...probably the best growth I've ever had over a set period.
    And at the same time, been dropping the fat (visually, with abs poking thru, waist narrowing, not measured with calipers).
    Again, I'm going to say CARB BACK LOADING... Lol
    Been following that regiment except weekends where my fast cutoff comes sooner and calories are higher.

    I have to think that 1) carb replenishing helps with workouts for sure, and the insulin spike helps with muscle growth and 2) my body fat is helping fuel/rebuild new muscle stimulus..?

    Of course, it's no where near as efficient using stored fat for the raw energy to build new muscle (keeping in mind protein intake is still up in the 1g /1lbs or better) than it would be with excess 500 or 750 extra calories a day over maintenance....
    But in convinced you can build muscle and at the same time, burn fat.
    But a couple of take aways... I probably could of had more growth with a typical excess calories bulk, but at the same time, I would certainly be a lot further behind with my fat loss.
    And if course, if you're already down in the single digits percentage of fat, good luck!

    Oh.... And my weight loss. I've been complaining that the weight hasn't been coming off, and this is true. But I can see now that the muscle is building and the fat is burning, hence what the scales are telling me.
  2. Fred

    Fred Member

    Hummm. I believe a couple people will say its possible. Especially if you have enough fat. At 12% or less though... I cant see it happen.. It would depend on the person, genetics, suplements (and juice ;) ).

    Also as stated by many, it is simple faster and mentaly easier to bulk and cut by cicles. I can not gain muscle without gain fat.
    Trying to maintain what i have in a cut and still very dificult. Wil see now with HST principles in play if i can cut and mantain strenght/size.

    Also - Is carb loading really a thing?
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  3. wungun

    wungun Member

    Carb Back loading.... Google it.
  4. Fred

    Fred Member

    I did google it, it makes very little sense to me.
    You want to burn fat so you lower carbs. So far so good, more kcals to protein and fat. Great! But wont 30 to 50g a day be way low?

    But, after a workout you are eating your daily carbs? Wont that replenish glicogen and not allow body to burn fat to recover? Isnt this very important?
    Also shortage in carbs during the day will most likely lead to catabolic state (or at least you will be more prone to it).

    Even if growth is the goal, protein alone will provide better results than carbs+protein? I cant seem to find the article, that defended it though..

    That said, i know very little about carb back loading, but in my head makes very little sense.

    Things that do make sense to me are Total KCals by the end of the day/week, high protein intake to keep nitrogen levels high, and fat to keep hormones and joints healthy, carbs to keep up performance levels.
  5. wungun

    wungun Member

    You're not understanding it... Lol
    You are NOT cutting carbs.
    You are timing your carbs post workout to replenish, which is correct. You go carbless during the day, just fat and protein and BCAA's (to prevent catabolic state)
    Protein is needed for muscle growth, of course but without carbs, you have no strength to workout and hence your workouts suck and you don't grow and struggle to maintain.
    I hit new PR all the time, despite being in a deficit. Have to maximize your protein and carbs without going over in calories.
    The CBL theory will try to make you think calories don't matter and you can still do this. Last year, after I was in this regimen for a long while and in single digit fat levels, I had a hard time getting heavier despite upping my calories significantly.
    Think of it as daily micro cycles....AM is ketosis and fat burning, post workout is refueling and replenishing.
    Insulin is very important to muscle growth, and late afternoon workouts your sensitivity to insulin is lower.... Except for your muscle/glycogen uptake!
    You can find the CBL manual on torrents.
  6. Fred

    Fred Member

    I will check, but i still maintain what i said, whey protein will give a insuline spike and if you postpone your carbs to an hour after workout i believe it will still be more efective, and still replenish.
    ketosis in the morning??? Ketosis takes days man. Cant be that!!

    It is just strange to me that you are on a deficit and hitting PRs.

    Bottomline is: This is working for you, so i will shut up xDDD
  7. wungun

    wungun Member

    Sure, you'll get an insulin response.... But then what? What are you shuttling off to your depleted muscles other than protein??
    Not sure what you mean," still be more effective and still replenish"..? Do you mean just a protein shake after workout?
    This is maybe why you have trouble maintaining in a cut, you said..? Lol. You have no strength to lift heavy because you're depleted of glycogen. I'll say it a thousand times.... I will never do low carb diet ever again!
    Mentally easier to bulk and cut??? Not me.... It distresses me to see me get fat then having to diet hard to get back down again. Ugh! You know what's mentally satisfying?? Rewarding yourself after a workout with FOOD! White rice, pancakes, waffles and syrup and butter, ice-cream, cookies, bagels and cream cheese, pizza, fried eggs, White bread, peroggies, potatoes, biscuits, muffins, etc!

    Ketosis.... You're right, it takes days to set up. But by not eating anything until lunch or later, and then just protein/fat, you WILL burn/lose fat.... Trust me.
    In a normal, busy schedule, I don't miss not eating during the day. But by 4pm, my hunger is enough to motivate my ass to the bench and the delicious reward that follows! Lol

    It may not work for everyone, and not everyone will believe it works... But you're right, works for me!
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  8. wungun

    wungun Member

    I've upped my bench and my deadlift while in this current deficit. :). Not strange for me! Lol
    But I do notice a difference in strength from my current 140-160g of carbs to my normal 280-300g.
    Everything else just gets the same workout for now.
    As far as carbs, if you're doing full-body workouts and lifting hard, you need near 2g carbs/1lbs bodyweight to replenish!
    60g to 100g a day wont do you any good for pr's or for lifting enough to maintain,for that matter. This is how I think im able to gain muscle while still in a deficit.... At least while I have bodyfat...
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  9. Fred

    Fred Member

    I did not say i had trouble maintaining a cut. in fact cutting is the easiest thing for me. Maintaing size/lean mass during it is the struggle really.

    You do realise that if glicogen is low, the body converts protein and fat to it? That is why i said it still replenishes it. And yes a load of studies demonstrate an effective spike of insulin sustained for 2h after 20-30g of whey protein. And yes adding carbs will give you a higher insulin spike, and adding fat will give you an even higher and lasting (5hours or more).

    I said more efective burning fat after a workout, doing the post workout only with protein and an 1h/1h30 later the carbs, would probably make you burn more fat in that window time. Why you ask? Well carbs are the primary fuel source, so if you do them imediately after a work out the body will use them. Now i do realise that after a workout they will be used mostly to replenish the muscle, but what is the right amount??

    Skipping breakfast? Not eating that long would probably burn muscle at lower BF levels.

    I am not contesting your results or your diet, i am just trying to understand how does this work. That is a great work, especially on the bench wich usually suffers from the cut! Keep it up!

    PS- I still eat 2g carbs/lbs even cutting ;)
  10. wungun

    wungun Member

    I meant maintaining muscle /lean mass on a cut...not "maintaining a cut" :)
    Convert protein to energy... Which may burn more calories, because it isn't efficient, but why would you "waste" expensive protein for fuel (in a low carb scenario) and not utilize it for growth and repair,what it's best used for?
    There is a small, ideal window of uptake to muscles brought on by heavy muscle use and insulin (t-glute response) for glycogen restoration. You want a strong, short insulin response (dirty carbs) and heavy carb uptake in this window to "fill" the muscles and spare the glycogen to fat storage (part of the reason to workout late afternoon). Protein synthesis occurs anytime protein is present in the body, so the "window" isn't as important. However, protein within an hour of workout is best.
    You don't want slow burning carbs because that elicits a too long insulin response, risking more glucose store to fat.
    If your heavy carb intake is in this window, then a large portion of those carbs to to energy storage in the muscles, then hopefully to liver(?) and lastly, to fat.
    This is why I'm not concerned about fat burning after workout... That what 11pm that night to 3pm the next day (fast) is for. My post workout regimen is strictly for replenishing and repair and muscle growth, period!
    The right amount of carbs...? All depends on how strenuous your workout is first and foremost... How active you are, etc. I've had 400g at times on my 170lbs frame!
    As your BF gets down to where you want it, is maybe cut off the fasting sooner... And add more carbs/protein/calories gradually.
    The risk of muscle loss isn't as great as you think,...just keep your workouts heavy.... And heavy means carbs!
    Find the manual and read up.... It really is quite interesting, and the only diet and workout program (with HST )that I'll ever do!
  11. Fred

    Fred Member

    Will do!

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