HSN products

[Blood&Iron]

Quote[/b] (edziu @ Jan. 23 2003,12:41)]I'm a big fan of Primer, and like Lyle, am disappointed by the difficulty getting Driver to dissolve.

Hmmm, I was initially more impressed with Driver than Primer, simply because I really can't remember having seen any other casein-containing protein powder that isn't primarily whey. If you use a small hand blender, Driver mixes fine. Even with just a shaker (I use one with a screen), provided I shake it vigorously enough, it mixes up quite well. Tastes good too--great with milk.

 

[BIZ]

Aaron:
As usual, there is no evidence against using creatine with OJ that I could find. Maybe Bryan can chime in on this.

What I did find interesting was the ACSM made a statement concerning creatine that does not gel with what I have heard and read about, and practice. They say, " Creatine should not be used immediately before exercise, and should not be used by children or by women who are pregnant or lactating." The children and lactating thing I understand, but not pre-exercise??? Are they afraid of dehydration?

 

[Aaron_F]

The prior to training is probably from the anecdotal reports of dehydration, or stomach problems that some people have. Being the relatively conservative people they are, and since there is a relative lack of longterm (controlled) trials on creatine, they would have taken the easy road.

 

[arcturus]

I add the creatine to the pre w/o shake, about 30 mins before w/o. Have had no stomach upset or dehydration. As for the Driver, I have had no problems with it dissolving in a hand shaker in water. Absent that, you could use a martini shaker

Luck and Peace

 

[Jon Stark]

Quote[/b] (BIZ @ Jan. 29 2003,10:08)]They say, " Creatine should not be used immediately before exercise, and should not be used by children or by women who are pregnant or lactating."

I don't even understand the pregnant/lactating women part. Where is all the evidence creatine is dangerous? The evidence is instead mounting that it's not only a useful tool for building strength, but it may also improve mental function.

People are crazy. I wouldn't worry if it weren't for the fact that it seems like the supplements-are-the-debil mentality seems to be on the rise.

I've used creatine for over 5 years almost continuously and I've never experienced dehydration or upset stomach, unless I didn't drink enough water or I got some bad take-out.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (Jon Stark @ Jan. 30 2003,11:08)]I don't even understand the pregnant/lactating women part. Where is all the evidence creatine is dangerous? The evidence is instead mounting that it's not only a useful tool for building strength, but it may also improve mental function.

Since there is no saftey data on children, and no teratogenic studies they cannot recommend it to women/children. THis is a safety clause, as they can be sued if something does happen. Why do you think even the likes of glucosamine is not recommended to pregnant women.
Just because you (n=1) havent had any problems, doesnt mean others dont. Louie Simmons doesnt like creatine, neither does charlie francious either from memory, because they have had or seen problems from its use.

 

[Jon Stark]

Of course, I know you can't generalize from a single case, and you are right about women and children and litigation and all that, it's just that I get exasperated when peoples' perceptions of what is really "risky" is so warped. I'd guess drinking green tea during pregnancy would have more deleterious consequences for unborn children (especially boys) than taking creatine or eating red meat.

Quote[/b] ]...it is important to also consider the potential adverse effects accompanying the use of green tea or catechins. For example, any effects on endocrine systems may have serious consequences in pregnant women and young children, for example.

- from Liao, The Medicinal Action of Androgens and Green Tea Epigallocatechin Gallate

But not many people worry about green tea, because it's associated with peace and quiet contemplation, whereas creatine is used by big guys who go to the gym and eat more protein than they should.

I've read that there's 2g of creatine in about half a pound of red meat. I wonder how many thousands of people (including some pregnant women) in this country get freaked out by the big scawy words "creatine monohydrate" yet take a substantial dose at every meal?

I'm still curious about what evidence there is that creatine shouldn't be used prior to exercise.

 

[BIZ]

The ACSM's statement makes sense in that the old creatine, not micronized or effervescent, had granulars to large to be absorbed in the small intestine so they sit in the stomach and draw water into the intestines and then pass through the intestines a bit quicker, hence the squirts and why some users experienced muscle cramps due to dehydration. This is not even a concern when using micronized creatine when mixed in warm water due to the ability of micronized creatine to more fully dissolve than the old stuff. Plus it is small enough to get through the wall of the small intestines. Not sure about micronized creatine, but I believe with the old stuff (large granules), if you drank 5g of creatine, you were lucky to absorb 2g.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (BIZ @ Jan. 31 2003,2:26)]and draw water into the intestines and then pass through the intestines a bit quicker, hence the squirts and why some users experienced muscle cramps due to dehydration.

It doesnt really matter, as its the osmolarity in the small intestine that will affect the 'squirting'
5g of creatine either micronized or granular will still provide similar osmolarity.

Quote[/b] ]Plus it is small enough to get through the wall of the small intestines. Not sure about micronized creatine, but I believe with the old stuff (large granules), if you drank 5g of creatine, you were lucky to absorb 2g.

Any creatine, whether old or new will flush out a large proportion of it, and that amount increases daily. Micronized may offer some benifit to start with, but in the long run it doesnt matter.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

At least two studies have been performed on creatine supplementation in children. One study involved children with muscular dystrophy. Creatine was orally administered over a period of 155 days to a 9-year-old child with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Just as in previous studies using normal subjects and trained athletes, the child experienced improved muscle performance during creatine supplementation with no adverse effects.

Another study looked at the effect of creatine in kids with mitochondrial encephalomyopathies. In subjects aged 9 – 26, creatine was taken for at least 3 months. After creatine supplementation for at least 3 months, all patients showed an increase in maximal power of 8% to 17% and a prolonged time in submaximal endurance testing (not done in one patient) of 30% to 57%. One patient with KSS, who has been receiving creatine for almost 2 years, has maintained the improvement in muscle power. In all patients, improvement was noticeable after 2 to 4 weeks, and no adverse effects were reported.

So, there you have it. Any recommendations about children and creatine can only be based on available research. Although there isn’t a lot of it at present, everything done so far indicates that it has the same safety profile as it does in adults.


Refernces:
1. Felber S, Skladal D, Wyss M, Kremser C, Koller A, Sperl W. Oral creatine supplementation in Duchenne muscular dystrophy: a clinical and 31P magnetic resonance spectroscopy study. Neurol Res 2000 Mar;22(2):145-50
2. Borchert A, Wilichowski E, Hanefeld F. Supplementation with creatine monohydrate in children with mitochondrial encephalomyopathies. Muscle Nerve 1999 Sep;22(9):1299-300

 

[Aaron_F]

But considering the acsm usually states there is no safety data for adults, why would children make any difference?
They dont count relatively short term (even at 2 years) or the fact that athletes have been using it for >10y with no epidemic of anything bad.
Being seen, as the organisation they are, making a sweeping statement that its safe for children could lead to some potential lawsuits.

 

[imported_edziu]

Quote[/b] (Blood&Iron @ Jan. 28 2003,4:46)]Hmmm, I was initially more impressed with Driver than Primer, simply because I really can't remember having seen any other casein-containing protein powder that isn't primarily whey. If you use a small hand blender, Driver mixes fine. Even with just a shaker (I use one with a screen), provided I shake it vigorously enough, it mixes up quite well. Tastes good too--great with milk.

I'm duly impressed with it as a supplement vis a vis ingredients.

But I unavoidably get some lumpage. Even when I use the blender, I end up scraping white lumps off the glass of the blender. I've tried loading the liquid first, starting the blender, and then adding the powder -- still white lumps.

But it's worth it. There are WORSE dissolving powders, which are more expensive, and are relatively nutritionally defunct.

The taste is good, and the nutritional quality of driver is up there with the highest, although the price isn't.