il_dottore
New Member
Is there someone who follow HST & Clean Bulk with positive results?
Are there links I can look for?
Are there links I can look for?
HST & Clean Bulk
- Thread starter il_dottore
- Start date
"Clean" bulking won't make a difference over "dirty" bulking in the long run, with regards to muscle gain. I've done both and the only difference was that it is a lot easier to get all your calories in with a "dirty" bulk. This would mean that it is also easier to eat too much (for some people) and gain more fat, but that is a function of total calories consumed, not what type.
As long as you are getting enough protein overall, it won't make a difference with regards to muscle gain.
As long as you are getting enough protein overall, it won't make a difference with regards to muscle gain.
I have to both agree and disagree with Totentanz. At the end of the day, it is how many calories you are consuming. However, it has been consistently shown that higher doses of fish oil (preferably pharma-grade) have a leaning effect by controlling your hormones. Also, clean eating tricks such as balancing good carbs such as fruits, veggies, and oats with lean protein can regulate insulin levels leading to a leaner body.
My main issue with clean eating is that a lot of guys are so worried about making sure that they eat clean, that they fail to get in enough calories to grow. The most important thing in muscle growth is making sure you have enough calories to grow in the first place. Once you have enough calories, then you can go ahead and worry about what sort of calories you are taking in.
Take home point - it won't matter how clean your food is, if you aren't eating enough of it, you aren't going to grow.
Take home point - it won't matter how clean your food is, if you aren't eating enough of it, you aren't going to grow.
coach hale
New Member
"Take home point - it won't matter how clean your food is, if you aren't eating enough of it, you aren't going to grow." This is a key point. As Totentanz points out it becomes hard for some people to eat a sufficient quantity of calories when eating "bodybuilding clean foods" as they are often non-calorie dense.
Make sure you are providing the body with a quality training regimen, proper levels of essential nutrients, enough protein and enough calories.
Ultimately your P-ratio and level of excess cals will determine fat to muscle ratio gains.
thanks
Coach Hale
www.maxcondition.com
Make sure you are providing the body with a quality training regimen, proper levels of essential nutrients, enough protein and enough calories.
Ultimately your P-ratio and level of excess cals will determine fat to muscle ratio gains.
thanks
Coach Hale
www.maxcondition.com
bluejacket
New Member
i think the above comments have quality info in them and have pointed you in the right direction..........no small feat these days.
a lot of info out there these days will have you chasing your tail for months/years fruitlessly looking to gain mainly muscle and v. little fat from a variety of dubious w/o and diet plans. for some (small %) it seems possible but for most its a function of calories in (-vs- out), amount and quality of protein, personal p-ratio (which you can affect to a small degree w/diet and lifting) and getting a nice mix of fat and carbs to provide essential nutrients as well as keep you healthy and sane.
where to go from here (links)?
i would search out info about protein intake, partioning ratio (p-ratio) and insuline sensitivity and how they relate to body building/strength training.
good luck
a lot of info out there these days will have you chasing your tail for months/years fruitlessly looking to gain mainly muscle and v. little fat from a variety of dubious w/o and diet plans. for some (small %) it seems possible but for most its a function of calories in (-vs- out), amount and quality of protein, personal p-ratio (which you can affect to a small degree w/diet and lifting) and getting a nice mix of fat and carbs to provide essential nutrients as well as keep you healthy and sane.
where to go from here (links)?
i would search out info about protein intake, partioning ratio (p-ratio) and insuline sensitivity and how they relate to body building/strength training.
good luck
scientific muscle
New Member
<div>
(coach hale @ Nov. 20 2007,10:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">"Take home point - it won't matter how clean your food is, if you aren't eating enough of it, you aren't going to grow." This is a key point. As Totentanz points out it becomes hard for some people to eat a sufficient quantity of calories when eating "bodybuilding clean foods" as they are often non-calorie dense.
Make sure you are providing the body with a quality training regimen, proper levels of essential nutrients, enough protein and enough calories.
Ultimately your P-ratio and level of excess cals will determine fat to muscle ratio gains.
thanks
Coach Hale
www.maxcondition.com</div>
Coach hale, last I saw a pic of you, you were shredded! Obviously you know how to bulk and cut properly.
(coach hale @ Nov. 20 2007,10:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">"Take home point - it won't matter how clean your food is, if you aren't eating enough of it, you aren't going to grow." This is a key point. As Totentanz points out it becomes hard for some people to eat a sufficient quantity of calories when eating "bodybuilding clean foods" as they are often non-calorie dense.
Make sure you are providing the body with a quality training regimen, proper levels of essential nutrients, enough protein and enough calories.
Ultimately your P-ratio and level of excess cals will determine fat to muscle ratio gains.
thanks
Coach Hale
www.maxcondition.com</div>
Coach hale, last I saw a pic of you, you were shredded! Obviously you know how to bulk and cut properly.
il_dottore
New Member
Thanks to all,
my protein intake is high more or less 3,2g x Kg lbm.
I know the most important thing in MASS is tot (daily/weekly) calories. Last yaers I tried hi-cal (500+TDEE) with hi carbs and I got al lot a lot of fat. I feel weel with low carbs and this year I'm going to try this way with HST (I never used)
My diet is TKD
Mon/Wed/Fri (wo)
Kcal 2133 (TDEE)
Prot 170 (32%)
Fats 113 (47%)
Carbs 111 (21%) [202 (34%) on Fri: start refeed]
Tue/Thu
Kcal 2106 (TDEE)
Prot 179 (34%)
Fats 142 (61%)
Carbs 29 (5%)
Sat (+/-)
Kcal 2898
Prot 79 (12%)
Fats 42 (15%)
Carbs 464 (73%)
Sun
Kcal 2320
Prot 174 (29%)
Fats 48 (18%)
Carbs 316 (53%)
Weekly average
Kcal 2292 (TDEE + 10%)
Prot 155 (28%)
Fats 102 (40%)
Carb 180 (32%)
I'm changhing any carbs on the week end because of HIGH tot col & LDL
In this post I asked for someone who have had good results with HST & a similar diet.
Are there a traing log or posts with these info?
my protein intake is high more or less 3,2g x Kg lbm.
I know the most important thing in MASS is tot (daily/weekly) calories. Last yaers I tried hi-cal (500+TDEE) with hi carbs and I got al lot a lot of fat. I feel weel with low carbs and this year I'm going to try this way with HST (I never used)
My diet is TKD
Mon/Wed/Fri (wo)
Kcal 2133 (TDEE)
Prot 170 (32%)
Fats 113 (47%)
Carbs 111 (21%) [202 (34%) on Fri: start refeed]
Tue/Thu
Kcal 2106 (TDEE)
Prot 179 (34%)
Fats 142 (61%)
Carbs 29 (5%)
Sat (+/-)
Kcal 2898
Prot 79 (12%)
Fats 42 (15%)
Carbs 464 (73%)
Sun
Kcal 2320
Prot 174 (29%)
Fats 48 (18%)
Carbs 316 (53%)
Weekly average
Kcal 2292 (TDEE + 10%)
Prot 155 (28%)
Fats 102 (40%)
Carb 180 (32%)
I'm changhing any carbs on the week end because of HIGH tot col & LDL
In this post I asked for someone who have had good results with HST & a similar diet.
Are there a traing log or posts with these info?
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In this post I asked for someone who have had good results with HST & a similar diet.
Are there a traing log or posts with these info? </div>
Check the HST Results thread AND the Training Logs forum.
Are there a traing log or posts with these info? </div>
Check the HST Results thread AND the Training Logs forum.
I
ironKid
Guest
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In this post I asked for someone who have had good results with HST & a similar diet</div>
i'm new at this (currently on my 1st wk of 10s) and i'm trying also a TKD diet. High carbs diets make me gain a lot of fat, so I have been experimenting with Keto diets for some time. I have lost about 30 pounds during the last 4 months. I lost some muscle also, keto diets aren't so magic as they say, but for me the good thing about low-carb diets is that they are amazingly easy to follow (especially CKD with free weekends
). If you are new at keto diets let me know, I might help you.
You can see my log here http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....t=14445.
About my experience with TKD during my 15s: I was doing 3w/o per week about 25min each + 2 HIIT sesions. I was eating 20% over the recomendations of 'Eating for Size' (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html#art_1) but still lost 5 pounds, pure fat this time. And remember, I was eating 20% over recomendations. Could be my metabolism was accelerated, I did too much exercise, or messed it up with my diet (don't think so, I measure everything, and I mean EVERYTHING).
Take home point - in my experience with TKD, if you are eating just 10% over maintenance that's not enough to gain mass. Many people would disagree with me, but at least for me, on a TKD a calorie is not just a calorie. Propably because of the different fuel efficiency of carbs against proteins and fats.
i'm new at this (currently on my 1st wk of 10s) and i'm trying also a TKD diet. High carbs diets make me gain a lot of fat, so I have been experimenting with Keto diets for some time. I have lost about 30 pounds during the last 4 months. I lost some muscle also, keto diets aren't so magic as they say, but for me the good thing about low-carb diets is that they are amazingly easy to follow (especially CKD with free weekends
You can see my log here http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....t=14445.
About my experience with TKD during my 15s: I was doing 3w/o per week about 25min each + 2 HIIT sesions. I was eating 20% over the recomendations of 'Eating for Size' (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html#art_1) but still lost 5 pounds, pure fat this time. And remember, I was eating 20% over recomendations. Could be my metabolism was accelerated, I did too much exercise, or messed it up with my diet (don't think so, I measure everything, and I mean EVERYTHING).
Take home point - in my experience with TKD, if you are eating just 10% over maintenance that's not enough to gain mass. Many people would disagree with me, but at least for me, on a TKD a calorie is not just a calorie. Propably because of the different fuel efficiency of carbs against proteins and fats.
il_dottore
New Member
<div>
(ironKid @ Nov. 22 2007,04:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In this post I asked for someone who have had good results with HST & a similar diet</div>
i'm new at this (currently on my 1st wk of 10s) and i'm trying also a TKD diet. High carbs diets make me gain a lot of fat, so I have been experimenting with Keto diets for some time. I have lost about 30 pounds during the last 4 months. I lost some muscle also, keto diets aren't so magic as they say, but for me the good thing about low-carb diets is that they are amazingly easy to follow (especially CKD with free weekends
). If you are new at keto diets let me know, I might help you.
You can see my log here http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....t=14445.
About my experience with TKD during my 15s: I was doing 3w/o per week about 25min each + 2 HIIT sesions. I was eating 20% over the recomendations of 'Eating for Size' (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html#art_1) but still lost 5 pounds, pure fat this time. And remember, I was eating 20% over recomendations. Could be my metabolism was accelerated, I did too much exercise, or messed it up with my diet (don't think so, I measure everything, and I mean EVERYTHING).
Take home point - in my experience with TKD, if you are eating just 10% over maintenance that's not enough to gain mass. Many people would disagree with me, but at least for me, on a TKD a calorie is not just a calorie. Propably because of the different fuel efficiency of carbs against proteins and fats.</div>
I'm not new on TKD or Metabolic diets.
Did you consider in the TDEE formula that you were training 5 days x week?
You Know:
BRM=(kg lbm x 21,6)+370
TDEE=BRM x 1,373 (1-3 x week) or 1,55 (3-5 x week)
may be this is why you lost weight...too low calories
(ironKid @ Nov. 22 2007,04:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In this post I asked for someone who have had good results with HST & a similar diet</div>
i'm new at this (currently on my 1st wk of 10s) and i'm trying also a TKD diet. High carbs diets make me gain a lot of fat, so I have been experimenting with Keto diets for some time. I have lost about 30 pounds during the last 4 months. I lost some muscle also, keto diets aren't so magic as they say, but for me the good thing about low-carb diets is that they are amazingly easy to follow (especially CKD with free weekends
You can see my log here http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....t=14445.
About my experience with TKD during my 15s: I was doing 3w/o per week about 25min each + 2 HIIT sesions. I was eating 20% over the recomendations of 'Eating for Size' (http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html#art_1) but still lost 5 pounds, pure fat this time. And remember, I was eating 20% over recomendations. Could be my metabolism was accelerated, I did too much exercise, or messed it up with my diet (don't think so, I measure everything, and I mean EVERYTHING).
Take home point - in my experience with TKD, if you are eating just 10% over maintenance that's not enough to gain mass. Many people would disagree with me, but at least for me, on a TKD a calorie is not just a calorie. Propably because of the different fuel efficiency of carbs against proteins and fats.</div>
I'm not new on TKD or Metabolic diets.
Did you consider in the TDEE formula that you were training 5 days x week?
You Know:
BRM=(kg lbm x 21,6)+370
TDEE=BRM x 1,373 (1-3 x week) or 1,55 (3-5 x week)
may be this is why you lost weight...too low calories
I
ironKid
Guest
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm not new on TKD or Metabolic diets.
Did you consider in the TDEE formula that you were training 5 days x week?
You Know:
BRM=(kg lbm x 21,6)+370
TDEE=BRM x 1,373 (1-3 x week) or 1,55 (3-5 x week)
may be this is why you lost weight...too low calories</div>
According to that calculation, my TDEE was when I started 3,150 kcal. I was having 3,500 for two weeks (during my 15s), not missing a single workout or meal and still loss 5 pounds.
Right know i'm trying a more aggressive approach, calculating on different steps resting, activity and feeding energy expenditure. If anyone is interested I can post more details. Acording to this calculation my TDEE is 4,100 kcal. I didn't want to go so far, so i'm trying right know 3,800 and reducing the cardio. Let's see how it goes.
Did you consider in the TDEE formula that you were training 5 days x week?
You Know:
BRM=(kg lbm x 21,6)+370
TDEE=BRM x 1,373 (1-3 x week) or 1,55 (3-5 x week)
may be this is why you lost weight...too low calories</div>
According to that calculation, my TDEE was when I started 3,150 kcal. I was having 3,500 for two weeks (during my 15s), not missing a single workout or meal and still loss 5 pounds.
Right know i'm trying a more aggressive approach, calculating on different steps resting, activity and feeding energy expenditure. If anyone is interested I can post more details. Acording to this calculation my TDEE is 4,100 kcal. I didn't want to go so far, so i'm trying right know 3,800 and reducing the cardio. Let's see how it goes.
il_dottore
New Member
<div>
(ironKid @ Nov. 22 2007,07:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">According to that calculation, my TDEE was when I started 3,150 kcal. I was having 3,500 for two weeks (during my 15s), not missing a single workout or meal and still loss 5 pounds.
Right know i'm trying a more aggressive approach, calculating on different steps resting, activity and feeding energy expenditure. If anyone is interested I can post more details. Acording to this calculation my TDEE is 4,100 kcal. I didn't want to go so far, so i'm trying right know 3,800 and reducing the cardio. Let's see how it goes.</div>
What about your lbm? Stay the same, increase or decrease?
Probably your metabolism is very very fast and you need more calories or you continue to lose because of carb lack
(ironKid @ Nov. 22 2007,07:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">According to that calculation, my TDEE was when I started 3,150 kcal. I was having 3,500 for two weeks (during my 15s), not missing a single workout or meal and still loss 5 pounds.
Right know i'm trying a more aggressive approach, calculating on different steps resting, activity and feeding energy expenditure. If anyone is interested I can post more details. Acording to this calculation my TDEE is 4,100 kcal. I didn't want to go so far, so i'm trying right know 3,800 and reducing the cardio. Let's see how it goes.</div>
What about your lbm? Stay the same, increase or decrease?
Probably your metabolism is very very fast and you need more calories or you continue to lose because of carb lack
I
ironKid
Guest
my lbm decreased a bit, about 300g. It could be a small mistake in the fat measuring or water loss. I actually don't think i lost muscle. My chest measuring increased, my stomach decreased (there it goes the fat!) and the rest remained constant)
The point is that with the usual 50/30/20 ratio I gain fat easily, but when I reduce the carbs I can loose weight at a higher calorie intake. As i told you in the other topic you started. For me a calorie is not just a calorie.
I'll measure it again this weekend, but I haven't been consistent with diet and w/o due to work. I'll let you know i'm doing
The point is that with the usual 50/30/20 ratio I gain fat easily, but when I reduce the carbs I can loose weight at a higher calorie intake. As i told you in the other topic you started. For me a calorie is not just a calorie.
I'll measure it again this weekend, but I haven't been consistent with diet and w/o due to work. I'll let you know i'm doing
il_dottore
New Member
Probably you are carb sensitive or better you eat the wrong carbs (in the wrong time...may be. best post wo especially after 20/25 year old)
A-grade fibrous carbs
Spinach
Kale
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Brussel sprouts
Green Beans
Asparagus
Collard greens
Green and red peppers
Mushrooms
Tomatoes
Onions
Cucumbers
All other fibrous carbs, green vegetables or salad vegetables
A-grade starchy carbs
Yams
Sweet potatoes
Barley
Oatmeal (Old fashioned unsweetened)
Beans, all types
Black eye peas
Slow cooked brown rice (long grain/basmati)
Lentils
White potatoes Red potatoes
Carrots
A-grade simple carbs
All fresh fruits (not including canned, sweetened, or juice)
B-grade Carbohydrates
100% whole grain, unsweetened boxed cereals 100% whole grain cooked cereals 100% whole grain pastas (amaranth, quinoa, wheat, etc) 100% whole grain breads (100% whole wheat, rye, spelt, etc) 100% Whole wheat pitas
100% Whole grain, unsweetened muffins
Quick brown rice
Quick oatmeal (unsweetened)
C-grade carbohydrates
Grits
Cream of rice
Cream of wheat
White rice Pasta made from enriched flour (durum semolina)
Whole grain, low fat snack foods (pretzels, crackers, etc)
Bagels
Cheerios
Sweetened and /or flavored oatmeal
Raisin Bran cereal (wheat flakes, sweetened)
Enriched wheat bread
Unsweetened fruit juice
D-grade carbohydrates
Sweetened boxed breakfast cereals with no whole grains
Snack foods made from white flour (pretzels, crackers, etc.)
Bleached, enriched white bread (i.e., &#8220;wonder bread&#8221
or white bread products
Muffins and baked goods made with white flour, sugar and or hydrogenated oils
Prefer A & B
Look for this file:
Tom Venuto BURN THE FAT, FEED THE MUSCLE + Extras.zip
A-grade fibrous carbs
Spinach
Kale
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Brussel sprouts
Green Beans
Asparagus
Collard greens
Green and red peppers
Mushrooms
Tomatoes
Onions
Cucumbers
All other fibrous carbs, green vegetables or salad vegetables
A-grade starchy carbs
Yams
Sweet potatoes
Barley
Oatmeal (Old fashioned unsweetened)
Beans, all types
Black eye peas
Slow cooked brown rice (long grain/basmati)
Lentils
White potatoes Red potatoes
Carrots
A-grade simple carbs
All fresh fruits (not including canned, sweetened, or juice)
B-grade Carbohydrates
100% whole grain, unsweetened boxed cereals 100% whole grain cooked cereals 100% whole grain pastas (amaranth, quinoa, wheat, etc) 100% whole grain breads (100% whole wheat, rye, spelt, etc) 100% Whole wheat pitas
100% Whole grain, unsweetened muffins
Quick brown rice
Quick oatmeal (unsweetened)
C-grade carbohydrates
Grits
Cream of rice
Cream of wheat
White rice Pasta made from enriched flour (durum semolina)
Whole grain, low fat snack foods (pretzels, crackers, etc)
Bagels
Cheerios
Sweetened and /or flavored oatmeal
Raisin Bran cereal (wheat flakes, sweetened)
Enriched wheat bread
Unsweetened fruit juice
D-grade carbohydrates
Sweetened boxed breakfast cereals with no whole grains
Snack foods made from white flour (pretzels, crackers, etc.)
Bleached, enriched white bread (i.e., &#8220;wonder bread&#8221
or white bread productsMuffins and baked goods made with white flour, sugar and or hydrogenated oils
Prefer A & B
Look for this file:
Tom Venuto BURN THE FAT, FEED THE MUSCLE + Extras.zip
I
ironKid
Guest
thanks dottore, i've got the book and will read it. i'll make a post when I start this diet
il_dottore
New Member
Venuto is for a diet like 50% carbs 30% prots & 20% fats more or less but his cues/suggestions are very very good for all kinds of diets. There a lot of tricks....have a good reading
coach hale
New Member
Scientific Muscle,
I have been relatively lean a few times. When i decide to get lean i generally go very low cal and make sure to eat a sufficient quantity of prot. Macronutrient percentages vary. I lose and gain weight at a rapid rate. But my p-ratio is low which allows for rapid losses in bdft while maintaining most of my skeletal muscle, but when i gain weight fast i get rather fat and seem to have a tendency to hold on to excessive water.
I think maybe i am soidum sensitive as well. It is not unusual for my weight to fluctuate 6-7 lbs in 24-48 hrs.
thanks
coach hale
www.maxcondition.com
I have been relatively lean a few times. When i decide to get lean i generally go very low cal and make sure to eat a sufficient quantity of prot. Macronutrient percentages vary. I lose and gain weight at a rapid rate. But my p-ratio is low which allows for rapid losses in bdft while maintaining most of my skeletal muscle, but when i gain weight fast i get rather fat and seem to have a tendency to hold on to excessive water.
I think maybe i am soidum sensitive as well. It is not unusual for my weight to fluctuate 6-7 lbs in 24-48 hrs.
thanks
coach hale
www.maxcondition.com