HST/Wernbom Experiment
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Sci
Well-Known Member
3x10
Reverse Pulldown: 205
RDLs: 295
Decline Bench: 205
Low Row: 180
Seated DB Press: 61.25s
Leg Press: 460
Standing Calf: 280
getting close to my 10 RM for loads. I'll probably stay with these loads for a couple weeks. after that, I might bump it up a little and do 6-8 rep sets for a couple of weeks, but that is probably as heavy as I'll go and then restart the loading cycle in the 12s.
Reverse Pulldown: 205
RDLs: 295
Decline Bench: 205
Low Row: 180
Seated DB Press: 61.25s
Leg Press: 460
Standing Calf: 280
getting close to my 10 RM for loads. I'll probably stay with these loads for a couple weeks. after that, I might bump it up a little and do 6-8 rep sets for a couple of weeks, but that is probably as heavy as I'll go and then restart the loading cycle in the 12s.
Sci
Well-Known Member
4 weeks progress: weight: 201 (gained 3 pounds) 16" r arm, (gained 1/8") 43.5" chest, (gained 1/2") 35.5" waist, (gained 1/4") legs are exactly the same. the results are satisfying, as I am mainly trying to bring up the chest and shoulders right now. Just maintaining legs. I may up the volume for legs at some point, but happy to see a 1/2" on the chest in 4 weeks. I will keep the program as is for now and try to get to a 45" chest, which for my skinny ribcage, is pretty big.
Based on my experience, the higher frequency training works... Man does it work... I took a page out of O&G's book and am doing some freakishly high frequency for arms at the moment and over 3.5 weeks it looks like I have gained 1/4". So hard to believe, but my arms are now at about 18" (no chemical assistance whatsoever). Interesting thing is that I have also been doing the 5:2 diet and have dropped some body fat. Last I weighed myself, I was at around 210lbs. I will push on to see what else I can get with arm size gains. I am not really interested in growing anything else now as chest, back and shoulders are all pretty decent. Calves may get some priority in the coming months maybe, but I think I am at about where I want to be. On another note, it feels so much better being at a lighter weight now. I just feel like I have more energy... I didn't want this post to sound like I was bragging and hope it does not. I find that the training experimentation that we are doing is pretty cutting edge and certainly turns the conventional Weider split systems on their ear. I never would have thought it possible to gain a 1/4" in 3.5 weeks at my level of training. It will be interesting to see what more research will come out in the next 5-10 years and will all those publications start taking notice? Maybe weightlifters and bodybuilders will start seeing that they do not need to "juice up" in order to get decent gains?
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Sci
Well-Known Member
Arnold and his crew in the golden age trained like this with only very basic chemical assistance. They trained with high volume and 3x/week frequency per bodypart on average.
I just don't have the time to train 90 minutes every day. But after studying all the science, and looking in particular at the Wernbom meta-analysis, I think the right combination of load (6-12 rm), volume (30-60 total reps per bodypart per session), and frequency, (2-3x/week or more), you get a nice range to work with for optimal gains.
High frequency can work given volume and load are in check. Higher loading at lower volume and high frequency can also work well for strength especially. (Basically the way Alexaustralia trains).
It's always a balance of load, volume and frequency. I agree that frequency is very important. Probably number one. Loading can vary as HST principles show. Volume can vary tremendously as studies show also.
Anyway, back to my log.
3 sets of 8-10 reps
RDLs: 305
Decline Bench: 205
Reverse Pulldown: 205
Leg Press: 500
Seated DB Press: 61.25s
Reverse Fly, low seat: 80
Standing Calf: 280
I just don't have the time to train 90 minutes every day. But after studying all the science, and looking in particular at the Wernbom meta-analysis, I think the right combination of load (6-12 rm), volume (30-60 total reps per bodypart per session), and frequency, (2-3x/week or more), you get a nice range to work with for optimal gains.
High frequency can work given volume and load are in check. Higher loading at lower volume and high frequency can also work well for strength especially. (Basically the way Alexaustralia trains).
It's always a balance of load, volume and frequency. I agree that frequency is very important. Probably number one. Loading can vary as HST principles show. Volume can vary tremendously as studies show also.
Anyway, back to my log.
3 sets of 8-10 reps
RDLs: 305
Decline Bench: 205
Reverse Pulldown: 205
Leg Press: 500
Seated DB Press: 61.25s
Reverse Fly, low seat: 80
Standing Calf: 280
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Arnold was a dianabol fiend.The pre-HIT training had a lot of volume, no doubt. Definitely kept their accumulated fat down with any calories powering all those movements.If you're going to do 3x weekly, this is the general plan I would do, though my exercise selection would probably be different - here and there.
Sci
Well-Known Member
It's exhausting to do this much volume for fullbody... I tried splitting it up, but I couldn't keep up the daily training schedule. I admit doing a split of some sort and training daily would be more efficient for keeping the workouts shorter, and conserving energy.
An upper/lower split with daily training would've ideal for bodybuilding, but this fullbody 3x/week is about the most training time I can commit to at this point in life. (Long hours at work and little kids).
The calories certainly get burned up hard, doing fullbody 90 minute workouts at this frequency. I only rest about 2 minutes between sets, and u have to rush a bit to keep it under 90 minutes, I suppose as I get stronger, it will be too exhausting to keep this up, and I'll be forced to drop volume or do a daily training split.
Probably go back to a daily training split at some point.
An upper/lower split with daily training would've ideal for bodybuilding, but this fullbody 3x/week is about the most training time I can commit to at this point in life. (Long hours at work and little kids).
The calories certainly get burned up hard, doing fullbody 90 minute workouts at this frequency. I only rest about 2 minutes between sets, and u have to rush a bit to keep it under 90 minutes, I suppose as I get stronger, it will be too exhausting to keep this up, and I'll be forced to drop volume or do a daily training split.
Probably go back to a daily training split at some point.
Sci - Aren't you better off at keeping your workouts to 1/2 an hour or 45 minutes tops? I have done the high frequency for whole body and felt like it took a toll on my CNS (I ended up getting sick). I am happy to be advised that I am wrong, but based on my experience I think you need to keep exercise selections minimal (compounds) and keep workouts short. I am only interested in growing arms a bit more now and that is all, so I am doing even higher frequency than Wernbom for my arms and seem to be getting amazing results even whilst doing the 5:2 diet. Just my opinion based on my own experimentation. Were the participants in the Wernbom study all natural, I cannot remember off hand?
Sci
Well-Known Member
I am only doing 7 exercises for the entire body... Quite minimalist IMO. I am doing almost all compounds. Nothing for arms.
I usually do 2 warmup sets and 3 work sets for each exercise. I am trying to see if I can reduce it, but anything less, and I'll be skipping over some bodyparts.
I suppose I could do a more simplified, free weight compound program to hit the whole body with less exercises, but usually some bodypart or another ends up overlooked, like calves, rear delts, biceps, etc.
Edit:
This is the most simplified program I could come up with....
Barbell Row (posterior chain, back thickness)
Incline Bench (pecs, delts, tris)
Reverse Pulldown (back width, biceps)
Leg/calf Press (thighs/hips/calves)
It looks pretty solid, covering all the muscle groups. Any thoughts?
I usually do 2 warmup sets and 3 work sets for each exercise. I am trying to see if I can reduce it, but anything less, and I'll be skipping over some bodyparts.
I suppose I could do a more simplified, free weight compound program to hit the whole body with less exercises, but usually some bodypart or another ends up overlooked, like calves, rear delts, biceps, etc.
Edit:
This is the most simplified program I could come up with....
Barbell Row (posterior chain, back thickness)
Incline Bench (pecs, delts, tris)
Reverse Pulldown (back width, biceps)
Leg/calf Press (thighs/hips/calves)
It looks pretty solid, covering all the muscle groups. Any thoughts?
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Joe.Muscle
Active Member
Hey Sci,
I think it all depends on what you want from your training.
If you want to look like a bodybuilder...then you probabley need to train closer to a bodybuilding setup using HST principals and etc.
I use to love the bodybuilding look...but now I see that the All Show NO GO looks IMO looks crazy if it doesn't translate over into the real world. For example we have all seen that guy who has the huge upper body but can't do 5 pull ups or 1 minute plank and etc.
On the other hand if you are a natural lifter and are wanting to be strong,functional, athletic and carry more muscle and less bodyfat than the majority of people in the real working world I think a minimalist full body routine will work just fine. Will your rear delts be lagging...I don't know...but if I had to guess from a bodybuilding perspective they probabley will be. But from the average person viewpoint they will not even think about it they will just look at you as big and strong.
Also something that I think is important as we get older is the lifestyle of lifting to be healthy. I think that you can take a full body workout and if you do it correctly spread it out over 4 days (even more if you like) and make it cover a lot of basis for your own personal health and well being.
Again it just depends on what you want from training.
If you want to deadlift 600 pounds then well you know the answer.
If you want to bodybuild then well you know the answer.
BUT...and this is just my 2 cents....if you are like the rest of us with a career,family and actually want to be healthy and live a long life then structure your workouts to your lifestyle were you can get the most enjoyment and benefit to your health.
I tell people all the time the MOST optimal routine ON PAPER isn't always the most optimal routine for someone else.
The thing I do like about full body workouts at about 4 times a week are the following:
If you miss a workout its no big deal.
You can make them a strength workout if you want to get stronger...(think 5x5 and etc)
You can make then a strength / cardio circuit to improve cardio health and maintain mass.
You can make them more bodybuilding friendly my increasing the volume and etc.
So when you think about all of the benefits of the above the only drawback that I can think of is its not true bodybuilding training.
Also maybe take a month or 2 or 3 and just lift to enjoy it. Don't get so caught up in the numbers of HST everyweek. Dont' get me wrong we all know Bryan had to write the routine to show progressive load over the course of a couple of months and we all know that progressive load and adding weight to the bar is the fastest way to improve.
But when you have been lifting has long as a lot of us on this forum sometimes you have to just lift for a while to enjoy it.
One of the things I have seen that helps with knowledgable trainees (not newbies)...is take a full body routine and just auto regulate it over the work week.
What I mean by this is you go to the gym as often as you can each week due do life / career and etc.
So Monday- Friday you hit the gym as hard as you can if you feel like it. In other words if you get to the gym Monday and you feel great it may be a volume day of 4 sets of 10 reps.
If you feel like crap it may be a MyoRep light weight high rep brief workout to prime the body for latter in the week or you may just not hit the gym at all if you don't feel like it.
Then about 1 day a week lets say it Saturday you make it your strength day and you try to increase your lifts in that area...nothing fancy just something like that for a couple of months. Then when you feel like it get back to the daily / weekly progressions of HST.
Im rambling now but I hope this helps!
I think it all depends on what you want from your training.
If you want to look like a bodybuilder...then you probabley need to train closer to a bodybuilding setup using HST principals and etc.
I use to love the bodybuilding look...but now I see that the All Show NO GO looks IMO looks crazy if it doesn't translate over into the real world. For example we have all seen that guy who has the huge upper body but can't do 5 pull ups or 1 minute plank and etc.
On the other hand if you are a natural lifter and are wanting to be strong,functional, athletic and carry more muscle and less bodyfat than the majority of people in the real working world I think a minimalist full body routine will work just fine. Will your rear delts be lagging...I don't know...but if I had to guess from a bodybuilding perspective they probabley will be. But from the average person viewpoint they will not even think about it they will just look at you as big and strong.
Also something that I think is important as we get older is the lifestyle of lifting to be healthy. I think that you can take a full body workout and if you do it correctly spread it out over 4 days (even more if you like) and make it cover a lot of basis for your own personal health and well being.
Again it just depends on what you want from training.
If you want to deadlift 600 pounds then well you know the answer.
If you want to bodybuild then well you know the answer.
BUT...and this is just my 2 cents....if you are like the rest of us with a career,family and actually want to be healthy and live a long life then structure your workouts to your lifestyle were you can get the most enjoyment and benefit to your health.
I tell people all the time the MOST optimal routine ON PAPER isn't always the most optimal routine for someone else.
The thing I do like about full body workouts at about 4 times a week are the following:
If you miss a workout its no big deal.
You can make them a strength workout if you want to get stronger...(think 5x5 and etc)
You can make then a strength / cardio circuit to improve cardio health and maintain mass.
You can make them more bodybuilding friendly my increasing the volume and etc.
So when you think about all of the benefits of the above the only drawback that I can think of is its not true bodybuilding training.
Also maybe take a month or 2 or 3 and just lift to enjoy it. Don't get so caught up in the numbers of HST everyweek. Dont' get me wrong we all know Bryan had to write the routine to show progressive load over the course of a couple of months and we all know that progressive load and adding weight to the bar is the fastest way to improve.
But when you have been lifting has long as a lot of us on this forum sometimes you have to just lift for a while to enjoy it.
One of the things I have seen that helps with knowledgable trainees (not newbies)...is take a full body routine and just auto regulate it over the work week.
What I mean by this is you go to the gym as often as you can each week due do life / career and etc.
So Monday- Friday you hit the gym as hard as you can if you feel like it. In other words if you get to the gym Monday and you feel great it may be a volume day of 4 sets of 10 reps.
If you feel like crap it may be a MyoRep light weight high rep brief workout to prime the body for latter in the week or you may just not hit the gym at all if you don't feel like it.
Then about 1 day a week lets say it Saturday you make it your strength day and you try to increase your lifts in that area...nothing fancy just something like that for a couple of months. Then when you feel like it get back to the daily / weekly progressions of HST.
Im rambling now but I hope this helps!
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Sci
Well-Known Member
I actually really enjoyed your "rambling". 
You have some really good points and ideas there. I just have very specific physique goals, that include a very balanced, overall development. I am going to continue the fullbody 3 times/week. I just have to stay carbed up and hydrated, as long as I carry around a lemonade or a gatorade or something, I'm good to go for a 90 minute fullbody workout. That seems to be the only way for me to keep frequency up.
You have some really good points and ideas there. I just have very specific physique goals, that include a very balanced, overall development. I am going to continue the fullbody 3 times/week. I just have to stay carbed up and hydrated, as long as I carry around a lemonade or a gatorade or something, I'm good to go for a 90 minute fullbody workout. That seems to be the only way for me to keep frequency up.
Sci
Well-Known Member
My gains are off the chain. I swear I have increased definition even with the weight gain. Impedance scale says I gained almost all lean mass so far, bodyfat% has dropped with the weight gain!
I am reluctant to take progress pics thus early in the log, but it is tempting! I had to increase calories. I'd like to see a 45" chest and 17" arms this year, and I think it's definitely attainable on this training program, with proper nutrition of course.
I am reluctant to take progress pics thus early in the log, but it is tempting! I had to increase calories. I'd like to see a 45" chest and 17" arms this year, and I think it's definitely attainable on this training program, with proper nutrition of course.
Sci
Well-Known Member
I combined thigh exercises, by combing leg press and RDL into Deep Squats, which work the entire thigh/hip simultaneously.
Got it down to 6 exercises, took about 70 minutes total. feel like all musculature is getting hit though on this program.
Fullbody compound program
3 sets of 8-10 reps
Deep Squats: 185
45 Incline Bench: 155
Chin-ups: -30
Dips: 0
Reverse Fly: 90
Calf Raise: 300
Got it down to 6 exercises, took about 70 minutes total. feel like all musculature is getting hit though on this program.
Fullbody compound program
3 sets of 8-10 reps
Deep Squats: 185
45 Incline Bench: 155
Chin-ups: -30
Dips: 0
Reverse Fly: 90
Calf Raise: 300
Sci
Well-Known Member
joe muscle said:
I was just re-reading this. It's just what i needed. My life is very stressful, and I think I just need to go to the gym "for fun" and not get so obsessed with perfect training and diet...
If I had tons of free-time, then I could train the perfect routine and eat a perfect diet.... Lol, never going to happen... Anyway, you are right, I've been really stressed, and I need to focus on de-stressing and having fun at the gym, instead of obsessing over the perfect Trainjng, and trying to look like a pro bodybuilder... Life is too short. I need to just relax more.
Sci
Well-Known Member
Just went in and started doing exercises randomly... Ended up going really fast this way and super-setting exercises... Good fun.
Anyway, it went something like this:
1-2 warmup sets
2-3 work sets of 6-10 reps
Reverse Fly:80
Cable Row:160
Reverse Pulldown:200
Fly:130
Incline Press:155
Rack pull:295
Leg press:500
Leg curl:120
Calf Raise:300
Dip:BW
Lateral:17.5s
Curl:85
Anyway, it went something like this:
1-2 warmup sets
2-3 work sets of 6-10 reps
Reverse Fly:80
Cable Row:160
Reverse Pulldown:200
Fly:130
Incline Press:155
Rack pull:295
Leg press:500
Leg curl:120
Calf Raise:300
Dip:BW
Lateral:17.5s
Curl:85
Sci
Well-Known Member
Made it fullbody in 60 minutes today!!
3 sets of 6-10 reps
*1-2 sets
Back Width: Reverse Pulldown: 205
Back Thickness: Cable Row: 160
Pectorals: Incline Press: 160
Triceps: Parallel Dip: myo-reps
*Biceps: Barbell Curl: 85
Deltoids: DB Lateral: 20s
*Quadriceps: Leg Press: 500
*Hamstrings: Lying Leg Curl: 140
Calves: Calf Raise: 320
*Abdominals: Just kidding!
3 sets of 6-10 reps
*1-2 sets
Back Width: Reverse Pulldown: 205
Back Thickness: Cable Row: 160
Pectorals: Incline Press: 160
Triceps: Parallel Dip: myo-reps
*Biceps: Barbell Curl: 85
Deltoids: DB Lateral: 20s
*Quadriceps: Leg Press: 500
*Hamstrings: Lying Leg Curl: 140
Calves: Calf Raise: 320
*Abdominals: Just kidding!
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