In Response to the HST Creatine FAQ

[EctoSquat]

I posted the FAQ info on <span style='color:red'>creatine consumption time</span> for a nutritional expert (this guy really knows the science of nutrition) to see, and these were his responses (the stuff in quotes is from the <span style='color:blue'>FAQ</span>):

Quote[/b] ]when insulin reaches very high levels, it has been shown to increase the amount of creatine that is taken up into cells. There is no evidence that it increases the total amount that the cell can hold [...] We also know that insulin, because of its effects on sodium retention, also &quot;facilitates&quot; creatine entry into cells.

this is why it is optimal to take creatine during the time that your objective is to raise insulin levels. the highest insulin levels without a doubt should occur postworkout.

Quote[/b] ]Exercise increases creatine uptake. If you take some creatine and sit on a staionary bike and only peddle with one leg, the leg you peddle with will take up more creatine than the leg that is not peddling. (hint: take you creatine pre-workout)

yes this is true, because creatine uptake, like typical nutrient uptake kinetics, is depletion-dependent. immediately after a workout or at the tail end of it, creatine depletion is greater. this is a good time for taking advantage of increased uptake demand - not preworkout as the author recommends, because the demand is simply less.

Quote[/b] ]We also know that if creatine is floating around during exercise, it will be taken up much better than when you take it at rest.

&quot;at rest&quot; needs to be defined. the immediate postworkout state &amp; near-end of workout state are vastly different than when you've been sitting on the couch for hours watching sitcom re-runs. what we need to look at are studies comparing gains in size &amp; strength with either pre or postworkout crea intake. for now, i'll stick to postW &amp; near-end ofW crea intake. i otherwise agree with the rest of the writeup.

 

[EctoSquat]

Bryan, Blade, anyone?

 

[EctoSquat]

Hmm, does absolutely ANYBODY have anthing to say to this? I don't know if I should take creatine pre or post workout.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Ecto, I believe Bryan has already stated that as far as known there isn't any, or very few,studies that have determined any temporal pattern to Creatine ingestion.

So perhaps the Author of the above can elaborate on how he came about his decision?

 

[jeffw]

An article I quote below (<span style='color:990000'>emphasis added</span>) agrees point for point with the nutrition expert you checked with:

Quote[/b] ]Creatine uptake
Creatine uptake refers to the rise in the levels of creatine in the muscle. The degree of improvement in exercise performance is closely linked to creatine uptake. A rise of at least 20 mmol per kilogram of dry muscle is necessary before the benefits of supplementation become apparent.

The hormone insulin assists the transport of creatine into the muscle. Insulin aids the deposition of protein in cells by increasing the rate of amino acid transport through cell membranes. That's why <span style='color:990000'>combining creatine with an insulin-releasing agent (such as dextrose) can increase the rate of creatine uptake during supplementation</span>.
…
Exercise
<span style='color:990000'>Exercise also increases the rate of creatine uptake.</span> A research group led by Professor Roger Harris showed that levels of creatine following supplementation in the muscles of an exercised leg rose by 38%. In the rested leg, creatine levels only increased by 26%.

So, it appears that <span style='color:990000'>the best time to use creatine is after exercise</span>. There is no benefit of taking creatine before exercise. In fact, creatine taken during (or slightly before) exercise appears to &quot;interfere&quot; with the performance gains linked with prior creatine loading.

<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>From Christian Finn's The Facts About Fitness</span>

These statements as to the timing of taking creatine refer to the rate of creatine reuptake, not to increasing the amount your cells can hold. Whether the cells get filled up faster or slower, as the Supplement FAQ says, &quot;in the end, you will still end up with as much creatine in muscle.&quot;

The article agrees, also, elsewhere, that creatine uptake is depletion-dependent.

While the words &quot;at rest&quot; in the FAQ could be clarified—I would take them to mean, roughly, &quot;you've been sitting on the couch for hours watching sitcom re-runs,&quot; not &quot;resting, 30 seconds after your workout&quot;—I think the meaning in the FAQ is fairly evident.

As far as I can tell, the FAQ, the nutrition expert, and the article I've quoted <span style='color:990000'>all agree</span>.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Jeff, in the Christian Finn article, again where is he getting his information, are there any recitals of emperical evidence in that article? Since I have never read that article can you let me know?

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Quote[/b] (EctoSquat @ July 31 2004,10:47)]Hmm, does absolutely ANYBODY have anthing to say to this? I don't know if I should take creatine pre or post workout.

Take it before you train.

 

[MrNasty]

Why not take it, both, before and after your work outs? I do. Seems to work fine for me.

 

[jeffw]

Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ July 31 2004,5<!--emo&amp;:0)]Take it before you train.

Now I'm curious.

Bryan: If the FAQ by Blade and the article I mentioned say exercise increases creatine reuptake, and the article and the nutritionist cited by EctoSquat both say it is better to take creatine post-workout. why do you say it is better to take it before working out?

Is your thinking that, <span style='color:GREEN'>because one cannot time the increase in creatine reuptake precisely during or after the workout, it is better to have it &quot;floating around&quot; a little beforehand</span> to take advantage of the increase when it occurs? Sort of a &quot;just in time&quot; strategy? Or something else?

[Actually, like MrNasty, I take some before and after &quot;just to be sure.&quot;]

 

[Aaron_F]

Who cares, take it before, take it after, take it in the morning, take it before bed. Once the muscle cells are saturated its not gonna make a lick of difference

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Quote[/b] (jeffw @ July 31 2004,6:51)]...If the FAQ by Blade

Blade posts the info but I'm the one who said it most of the time.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ July 31 2004,10:54)]Who cares, take it before, take it after, take it in the morning, take it before bed. Once the muscle cells are saturated its not gonna make a lick of difference

Anybody listening?

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Quote[/b] (jeffw @ July 31 2004,6:51)]

Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ July 31 2004,5<!--emo&amp;

)]Take it before you train.

Now I'm curious.
Bryan: If the FAQ by Blade and the article I mentioned say exercise increases creatine reuptake, and the article and the nutritionist cited by EctoSquat both say it is better to take creatine post-workout. why do you say it is better to take it before working out?
Is your thinking that, <span style='color:GREEN'>because one cannot time the increase in creatine reuptake precisely during or after the workout, it is better to have it &quot;floating around&quot; a little beforehand</span> to take advantage of the increase when it occurs? Sort of a &quot;just in time&quot; strategy? Or something else?
[Actually, like MrNasty, I take some before and after &quot;just to be sure.&quot;]

You guys are trying to make this WAY more complicated than it is.

Creatine is not only taken up into muscle but many many other tissues.

Take it before you train because that's when blood flow to muscle is at its peak.

Don't quote articles...quote studies. Articles often lead to more confusion because many people don't have the background to properly interpret the authors comments. Not only that, but the authors are incorrect about 80% of the time in their conclusions or they are just rehashing what they themselves read in a different article.

If you don't take your creatine before your train, it will still make it to your muscle cells. Will it take longer for your cells to reach saturation? Probably. Does that matter? Probably not. Eventually every individual will reach saturation regardless of when they take it. That's why trying to come up with different forms of creatine to &quot;improve absorption&quot; or whatever are just marketing schemes.

The &quot;post workout&quot; view of bodybuilding nutrition is also having an undue influence on this thread. Why not create an insulin spike during your workout instead of after? Why not have everything you want going into your muscle cells in the blood stream when blood flow to the tissue is at its peak? Why not acknowledge the insulin-like effect of muscle contraction? Anyway, my point is don't get too caught up in bodybuilding tradition.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Bryan Haycock @ Aug. 01 2004,10:59)]Don't quote articles...quote studies. ....... Not only that, but the authors are incorrect about 80% of the time in their conclusions or they are just rehashing what they themselves read in a different article.

Which is why I asked for the references of the articles. I personally have not been able to find any studies that state taking it pre or post is more beneficial, they just state amounts and results.

The article By Mr. Finn does refer to studies but I haven't had a chance to review them, BTW thanks Jeff

for sending me the article. So for now I prefer to take mine as according to Bryan-Pre Workout until I see evidence otherwise.

He hasn't steared me wrong yet.

 

[jeffw]

Thanks for the response, Bryan and Aaron_F!

Personally, I've never been all that concerned about the creatine-timing issue—as far as I could tell, basically, as you and Aaron_F said, practically everyone reaches saturation regardless of when creatine is taken. I was just curious as to your reasoning.

Just as an aside: Christian's articles are based on studies, not on other articles—his stated objective is to distill the research accurately, which is no guarantee that he does so, of course. (Christian's <span style='color:red'>interesting, accurate, and favorable take on</span> <span style='color:CC0000'>HST</span>, by the way, was how I first learned about it and that article brought me, and probably many others, to this site.) But the studies themselves are obviously the best place from which to draw conclusions.

I find the idea that I even could get too caught up in bodybuilding tradition <span style='color:FF3333'>somehow flattering</span>!

<span style='color:green'>Thanks again</span> for the responses.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] ] I was just curious as to your reasoning.

From the hundreds or thousands of research papers available (creatine supplementation has been researched since like 1920's) that creatine saturation happens, with or without carbs, with or without training, taken at different points of the day, etc

ITs just another thing not to spend forever worrying about

 

[EctoSquat]

I sent him (alan) the link to this thread, and I'll quote him again :

&quot;i checked out the link, &amp; i'm not convinced at all. first off, they can't seem to agree amongst eachother when the optimal dosing time is. first bryan says take it before you train. then aaron says timing doesn't matter &amp; as long as the cells are saturated, take it whenever time of day you dang well please. then bryan agrees. whashoosay mang? hmmm. at least be semi-consistent. scroll up in this here thread &amp; notice how bryan's rather nice writeup on creatine even mentions the effect of training on degree of uptake.. but there's a bigger picture here. saying that it won't help at all to time your micronutrition is the same thing as saying it won't help at all to time your macronutrition, as long as tissues/cells are saturated. well folks, i ain't sold. this is because of the unique physiology of the tissues (and cells for that matter) in the depletion or posttrained state. what do you think cellular saturation levels look like postW? yes, in the true resting state, there is a saturation point, but this has nothing to do with postW levels/demand. moreover, the body's chronic attempts at supercompensation against cellular stress over time can alter the substrate capacity of the cell, even the nature of carrier mechanisms, regardless of saturation level. the big picture once again: if you can better partition the deposition of macronutrients through intelligent timing of their ingestion, you can do the same thing with micronutrients, creatine included. the fact of the matter is that we are only aware of a fraction of its subcellular mechanisms of action. crea's effects on satellite cells are still being vigorously examined by scientists as i write this. if i were to nitpick it to death, the best time to take creatine is whenever you can coincide maximal blood levels with the greatest tissue depletion levels. this will largely depend upon the absorption kinetics of your pre &amp;/or during workout nutrition, which undoubtedly varies with individual protocols. for most people, the timing to coincide with these maximal levels is somewhere towards the end of the training bout. this sort of takes us back to where i started. alright, speech done.. i personally begin my postW macro &amp; crea intake during the last 20 minutes of my resistance training workout. this way, i'm hedging all of my bets toward optimal timing &amp; properly courting all of the many theoretical variables. i'm FAR from disappointed with the results.
^^now.. let it be known that we can kick around theoretics all frickin' day long, and experimental results using relevant samples/protocols can eventually prove either side wrong. but creatine timing comparison studies (ie, pre vs post for size/strength) do not exist to my knowledge as of yet.&quot;

The debate continues...

 

[Aaron_F]

Does he know what capitals are?? makes things much easier to read


Average creatine content of muscle is ~125mmol/kg dry mass, they have known that supplementing with creatine increases this for 80 odd years..

No method has gotten the level in muscle past ~160-170mmol/kg dry mass because there is a limit to the amount the muscle cell will let in. So taking it before, after during rectally doesnt make a difference, UNLESS you are interested in rising the creatine levels as FAST as possible.

Worrying about it either way is not going to achieve anything

 

[mikeynov]

Quote[/b] (EctoSquat @ Aug. 01 2004,7:51)]I sent him (alan) the link to this thread, and I'll quote him again :
&quot;i checked out the link, &amp; i'm not convinced at all. first off, they can't seem to agree amongst eachother when the optimal dosing time is. first bryan says take it before you train. then aaron says timing doesn't matter &amp; as long as the cells are saturated, take it whenever time of day you dang well please. then bryan agrees. whashoosay mang? hmmm. at least be semi-consistent. scroll up in this here thread &amp; notice how bryan's rather nice writeup on creatine even mentions the effect of training on degree of uptake.. but there's a bigger picture here. saying that it won't help at all to time your micronutrition is the same thing as saying it won't help at all to time your macronutrition, as long as tissues/cells are saturated. well folks, i ain't sold. this is because of the unique physiology of the tissues (and cells for that matter) in the depletion or posttrained state. what do you think cellular saturation levels look like postW? yes, in the true resting state, there is a saturation point, but this has nothing to do with postW levels/demand. moreover, the body's chronic attempts at supercompensation against cellular stress over time can alter the substrate capacity of the cell, even the nature of carrier mechanisms, regardless of saturation level. the big picture once again: if you can better partition the deposition of macronutrients through intelligent timing of their ingestion, you can do the same thing with micronutrients, creatine included. the fact of the matter is that we are only aware of a fraction of its subcellular mechanisms of action. crea's effects on satellite cells are still being vigorously examined by scientists as i write this. if i were to nitpick it to death, the best time to take creatine is whenever you can coincide maximal blood levels with the greatest tissue depletion levels. this will largely depend upon the absorption kinetics of your pre &amp;/or during workout nutrition, which undoubtedly varies with individual protocols. for most people, the timing to coincide with these maximal levels is somewhere towards the end of the training bout. this sort of takes us back to where i started. alright, speech done.. i personally begin my postW macro &amp; crea intake during the last 20 minutes of my resistance training workout. this way, i'm hedging all of my bets toward optimal timing &amp; properly courting all of the many theoretical variables. i'm FAR from disappointed with the results.
^^now.. let it be known that we can kick around theoretics all frickin' day long, and experimental results using relevant samples/protocols can eventually prove either side wrong. but creatine timing comparison studies (ie, pre vs post for size/strength) do not exist to my knowledge as of yet.&quot;
The debate continues...

Maybe that author needs some reading comprehension himself, as I took all of 5 minutes to read this thread and understood Bryan/Aaron's point without problem. People who give responses like that are usually just looking to pick a fight by attempting to nitpick.

All Bryan said, basically, was that, if one is concerned about achieving PCr saturation as fast as possible, before you workout will probably be optimal due to the effects of exercise on creatine uptake. Aaron pointed out that, regardless of what you do, it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Bryan agreed.

These are not mutually exclusive statements. I'll summarize so everybody can understand.

1) Taking creatine before you lift might make you reach saturation a little faster than taking it at other times.
2) Even with #1, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter that much. If you decided to take your creatine before you put on your pants in the morning, you'd still wind up at the same place as a person who took it before, during, or after training, as long as you reach saturation.

 

[Smee]

Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Aug. 01 2004,10:47)]...... So taking it before, after during rectally doesnt make a difference, UNLESS you are interested in rising the creatine levels as FAST as possible.

I know taking it &quot;rectally&quot; would affect uptake in my case ! There wouldn't be any up take because I wouldn't be supplementing!!